Would anyone be interested in an roots blower manifold if I manufactured one?

I've been tinkering with the idea on and off for a bit about casting a intake for a Whipple 140ax/170. I've talked with a buddy of mine who is a fabricator. Both him and I have LTx based cars so it would be beneficial for the both of us if we at least created a prototype. Having plenty of aluminum on hand at the moment and a spare LT1 (cracked block, heads need a lot of work) has really sparked the idea of casting one using a spare aluminum head/intake.

After posting a thread about the idea of it we received a lot of positive encouragement as well as some issues that would need to be addressed. In my head I have the following plan if the market is high enough to produce a few for sale.

The intake manifold would be very similar to the one Cornell built, but rather than CNC, it be cast aluminum to keep the cost down.

Here is the proposed intake:

• The runners would be identical in size to the stock LT1 intake.
• Bolt on to the intake/heads without machining or modification.
• All bolts on intake pre tapped with helicoil inserts.
• Pre-drilled for Vac lines and IAT.
• Supercharger mounting plate pre-drilled for 140ax/170 SC
• Custom Fuel rail included - similar to Cornell's.
• Elbow to match SC to throttle body.
• gasket for both the SC mounting plate as well as the SC

Lastly I'm contemplating offering a meth dual nozzle kit built into the intake. Both would be housed inside the intake body. One for the front, one for the back.

So far the price depending on included accessories would be roughly $700-1100, depending on production/time cost. The plan is to create the prototype for my car, then a production build, one for his engine to get an idea of the production cost. This isn't planned to be a full bolt on kit, and will require other modification to work (forged block, injectors, pump, the SC itself, 8 rib conversion, etc)

Your input is welcome, along with any features you think would be beneficial.

At the very least I would love to see it!

I'm with Madman. I would love to see it brought to the LTX market just as another option and to let everyone know were still a player in the HP game.

I would love to see a prototype and how its set up. cant say that i would be in the market for one since i have a Procharger, but other ideas i have with my spare block it would be nice to have the option for a whipple.

What do you think about the built in meth nozzles? I figure that would be great for pushing high boost, with out having to do any real modifications.

I say start simple.. try without the nozzles for the prototype... lets see how it comes out and works.. THEN, look at improving when that is successful. I do understand your excitement though, and more new products to the LTX market would be awesome.

I would be wary of helicoils and a part that will be taken on/off repeatedly or often.

As far as meth nozzles, add the correct tapped hole and allow users to either plug it, or put in their desired rated nozzle. A guy really pushing the blower will want more than a guy just making a couple PSI etc.

What about time-sert's instead of helicoil's? Little more expensive but more reliable.

I'm on a mobile or else if quote and then respond. Time-serts what the word I was looking for. I wanted something, because I've stripped more than my fair share of aluminum and striping a thread on a custom intake would suck. I like the idea of being able to plug or add your own nozzles, I think that would be the way to go.


I'll have to make a CAD drawing or an mspaint depending on the level of intoxication when I get home .


Thank you all again for your input!

I voted no. I really really wanted to build a supercharged camaro. However the reality of the situation is that it is never going to happen because of the overall cost of building one. That being said I hope you follow through with this project I would love to see it happen still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdamG

I voted no. I really really wanted to build a supercharged camaro. However the reality of the situation is that it is never going to happen because of the overall cost of building one. That being said I hope you follow through with this project I would love to see it happen still.

---

I hope you mean positive displacement supercharged camaro. The point of it being cast is to keep the cost low. I've been running numbers and assuming the mold doesn't eat up to much time, it should work out

Well I mspaint'd it, because I'm too lazy (and pants-less) to use CAD on my PC. What I'm thinking is some stainless steel pipe mounted inside the case, then T-off to two fittings, where you can screw in your own nozzles. The pipe will lead to the outer intake where you connect it to an existing system.

This is of course all theoretical.

http://i.imgur.com/LEsrz6H.jpg

ghettoooo drawing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nateleduc

I hope you mean positive displacement supercharged camaro. The point of it being cast is to keep the cost low. I've been running numbers and assuming the mold doesn't eat up to much time, it should work out

---

I think he meant the overall cost of building a motor to take the boost.

LTXtech.com is my drug.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by popo8

I think he meant the overall cost of building a motor to take the boost.

LTXtech.com is my drug.

---

http://ltxtech.com/forums/showthread...faint-of-heart

I think his vote is disqualified. FI isn't cheap. Anyway you look at it FI isn't cheap. I bet the 358 you have there ding'd you a pretty penny. I'm just trying to level the playing field a bit by possible providing a way to mount a roots/twin screw without welding and hacking up a stock intake

I know its early, but what would you project the total cost would be for this setup. (And I say setup and not "kit" because I realize you only intend to furnish the intake). What would the end users total investment be to make it operate 100%? And fwiw, I wouldn't take the "no" vote as a no. I think anyone would agree that the interest in your setup is only going to apply to people that are in the planning or building phase of an FI build. Obviously a guy just putting a cam in is not going to be interested. Don't sweat it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firebird_1995

I know its early, but what would you project the total cost would be for this setup. (And I say setup and not "kit" because I realize you only intend to furnish the intake). What would the end users total investment be to make it operate 100%? And fwiw, I wouldn't take the "no" vote as a no. I think anyone would agree that the interest in your setup is only going to apply to people that are in the planning or building phase of an FI build. Obviously a guy just putting a cam in is not going to be interested. Don't sweat it.

---

Not sweating it. I should have worded it as such: If you were looking to FI, would a low cost roots manifold interest you?

So far my spread sheet looks like this for the the prototype:

• Foundry construction - $75
• Propane - $19
• Wood - $20
• Casting supplies - $80 w/ shipping
• Aluminum - Free
• Aluminum plate -$60 w/ shipping
• Custom Gasket - $???
• Stainless pipe for Alky - $20

I anticipate a lot of man hours into making the prototype. I have a mill available that I may take a swing at machining them myself. If I find I can't machine them precise enough I'll just pass it on to an actual machine shop.

Yea prototypes will take a lot of time. Chances are its going to take a few to fine tune the design. But what I mean by my question is how much will a person that buys an intake expect to pay by the time they buy everything to make the system work? Example being, I could sell someone a set of brackets for a side mount for $350. The customer then has to buy the material to do a 10 rib conversion for $500, the supercharger itself for $500, and tubing and intercooler components for another $500. Figure another $150 for misc items, filter, belt, hardware and his total investment is up to $2000.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firebird_1995

Yea prototypes will take a lot of time. Chances are its going to take a few to fine tune the design. But what I mean by my question is how much will a person that buys an intake expect to pay by the time they buy everything to make the system work? Example being, I could sell someone a set of brackets for a side mount for $350. The customer then has to buy the material to do a 10 rib conversion for $500, the supercharger itself for $500, and tubing and intercooler components for another $500. Figure another $150 for misc items, filter, belt, hardware and his total investment is up to $2000.

---

I see what you mean now.

What I'm thinking for someone to fully bolt this on they would really need this

• Manifold $700
• Whipple 140ax/170 $2k
• 8 rib conversion $500 (optional)
• Alky kit $600
• custom elbow $150ish

The alky kit and 8 rib would only be needed if the SC was pushing more than 6lb of boost IMO. Technically, they could bolt on the manifold, SC, and elbow and be off. But I believe that if it is worth doing, then its worth overdoing. Personally I wouldn't want to spend the money on FI build just to push 6#s of boost.


Where the heck are you getting your SC from? I can't find SVT m112's on craigslist for that price

I run an m122.

SVT or Jaguar?

Also, another thing to add is that this is designed to fit under the stock cowl and hood of an Fbody. From the pictures of your builds, they look to be a little on the tall side.

I really like the twin remote mount SC you did.

Its the oem unit used on the gt500. I didn't do the twin mount. That was pocket on ls1tech. Gene Zebley did a custom intake for a whipple (i believe) on an impala. I actually spoke with him last night about another build I have been working on. It was very well built but it couldn't be tuned and managed to twist up a few rods in the process. It was a low profile mount. I'll try to post some pics of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firebird_1995

Its the oem unit used on the gt500. I didn't do the twin mount. That was pocket on ls1tech. Gene Zebley did a custom intake for a whipple (i believe) on an impala. I actually spoke with him last night about another build I have been working on. It was very well built but it couldn't be tuned and managed to twist up a few rods in the process. It was a low profile mount. I'll try to post some pics of it.

---

Interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cobra m112 points to the passenger side and the GT500 points to the drivers side.

I really haven't started looking for a tuner here in Houston. Everyone here is much more interested the the LSX than LT1. Swapping over to the 24x should solve it somewhat, since its essentially just a Chevy Express van.

Let me know if you stumble upon those pictures. I've very interested!

M122 inlet is on drivers side

You can discard my no thats fine. The reality is though that most people who say they will buy something wont follow through when it comes down to it because they dont put any forethought into a project. If you get 10 people who say they will buy it expect two people to actually poney up the money.

Look around on the forum and look at all the builds where people say they are going to do something and don't. Plus I dabble in a lot of hobbies and I can tell you I have seen tons of stuff like you want to do . Most times they don't get passed the drawing board. When they do like I said most times the people who said they would buy bail . Ill be impressed if you can do it for the cost you think you can. Because a member of another forum had a foundry cast intake grates for a jetski and the grates cost half of what your estimating your intake to cost. They are a fraction of the size and complexity.

Sent from my SCH-I110 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by firebird_1995

M122 inlet is on drivers side

---

Wow, that's a beauty. Sits a whole lot higher than what will fit under the fbody cowl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdamG

You can discard my no thats fine. The reality is though that most people who say they will buy something wont follow through when it comes down to it because they dont put any forethought into a project. If you get 10 people who say they will buy it expect two people to actually poney up the money.

Look around on the forum and look at all the builds where people say they are going to do something and don't. Plus I dabble in a lot of hobbies and I can tell you I have seen tons of stuff like you want to do . Most times they don't get passed the drawing board. When they do like I said most times the people who said they would buy bail . Ill be impressed if you can do it for the cost you think you can. Because a member of another forum had a foundry cast intake grates for a jetski and the grates cost half of what your estimating your intake to cost. They are a fraction of the size and complexity.

Sent from my SCH-I110 using Tapatalk 2

---

Under promise and over deliver. I really hope the cost isn't that high, but I'd rather say $700 and bump it down than say $200 and have to move it up. I realize that while 10 people say they are interested, only a few may buy. Its more about the interest in a roots manifold being on the market. Having the option instead of being stuck with a centrifugal super charger. But when you vote no on an idea based on the fact that FI isn't cheap, your not providing anything useful. You wouldn't be interested in any FI application, but again that is my fault for not wording it correctly.

I also completely agree that most projects never go completely through, but that's not how I work. Personally when I have an idea, I first approach it every possible issue that I will need to over come. I put a great deal of thinking into the idea before I started the previous thread.

I have quite a few things I've built that people have said wouldn't work:

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s....php?t=733286&

The cast is near completion, with the exception of a modification to the outer pannel. I stopped updating the thread due to a lack of response by the community

Not to be rude but big difference between building a computer and casting parts. Your seem to be an entry level back yard enthusiast when it comes to this. You said in another thread that all you have ever cast was some trinkets so once you get the initial design will you incorporate an actual foundry or just do it all your self. From what you said you will get all the aluminum free my guess is that this means scrap aluminum will be used to cast intake manifolds you plan to sell. How will this effect the casting as if it is scrap metal how can you be assured of the grade or quality of the aluminum. As posted in another thread several concerns have arose to the how you actually plan on casting a piece like this. how are you going to machine the mating surfaces?

I think these are legit concerns. If you are going to sell parts to people you have to sell to quality parts you cant just wing it and sell a bunch of manifolds to people and make it their problem. I followed the project of have the intake grates cast. I can tell you now that the foundry they used wouldn't do it unless it was a large order. They needed to sell at least 150-200 at a rip.

Another thing to think of, or not forget, is that casting is cheap process for a reason, it gets you sorta ballpark to final product. You will still need extensive milling on the intake flanges, where the intake meets the block areas, and where the blower mates to the intake. Then you will need to make sure you can control your mill work for the hole patterns and threaded inserts... castings are tough to control shift etc, and if this is a backyard endevour, be prepared for a lot of trashed molds until you can get things to be semi consistent.

I sound pessimistic but doing casting stuff in terms of CAD and semi big runs, is horribly time consuming. Casting design work is one of the trickiest cause of the non exact process of casting itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdamG

Not to be rude but big difference between building a computer and casting parts. Your seem to be an entry level back yard enthusiast when it comes to this. You said in another thread that all you have ever cast was some trinkets so once you get the initial design will you incorporate an actual foundry or just do it all your self. From what you said you will get all the aluminum free my guess is that this means scrap aluminum will be used to cast intake manifolds you plan to sell. How will this effect the casting as if it is scrap metal how can you be assured of the grade or quality of the aluminum. As posted in another thread several concerns have arose to the how you actually plan on casting a piece like this. how are you going to machine the mating surfaces?

I think these are legit concerns. If you are going to sell parts to people you have to sell to quality parts you cant just wing it and sell a bunch of manifolds to people and make it their problem. I followed the project of have the intake grates cast. I can tell you now that the foundry they used wouldn't do it unless it was a large order. They needed to sell at least 150-200 at a rip.

---

I understand the difference between casting aluminum and building a sheet metal computer. Like I said before, The aluminum would be from either a bad LT1 head or a cracked LSX block, depending on how many I decide to make. I have full faith that the aluminum (once chemically cleaned) will be pure enough to to use.

For machining the surface (SC plate, heads, block) I plan to try myself with a milling machine at my buddy's shop. If I feel that I don't have the skill to mill them correctly, I will pass it off to a local machine shop. I plan to at least try and mill the prototype myself, if it comes out straight and true, then perhaps I will continue milling them myself, if not - machine shop.

I also don't expect orders to pour in. What will more than likely happen is I make one for my T/A, my buddy's truck, and maybe 2-3 extras for the future. If I sell out of and need to make more, then I'll make a few more. I understand what you mean by quality, I wouldn't ever want to sell something that causes harm to another LTX member. I would be putting my name on the line if I sold half-ass castings that didn't fit/caused damage. My username is my REAL name. I can tell you, there are not to many Nate LeDuc's in Kingwood,Tx.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shownomercy

Another thing to think of, or not forget, is that casting is cheap process for a reason, it gets you sorta ballpark to final product. You will still need extensive milling on the intake flanges, where the intake meets the block areas, and where the blower mates to the intake. Then you will need to make sure you can control your mill work for the hole patterns and threaded inserts... castings are tough to control shift etc, and if this is a backyard endevour, be prepared for a lot of trashed molds until you can get things to be semi consistent.

I sound pessimistic but doing casting stuff in terms of CAD and semi big runs, is horribly time consuming. Casting design work is one of the trickiest cause of the non exact process of casting itself.

---

I get what you mean, where the manifold meets the SC mounting plate will need to be milled true, the block/heads will need to sit flush, the ports will need to match up reasonably well. I plan on over sizing the mold about 1/8" to allow me to machine if to the correct size. I've put a great deal of thought into the casting design. I'll post pictures once I start the design, but I do agree, the runners are going to be extremely difficult.

Well good luck to yah. Post up pics of it as you go along. If nothing else it will be interesting. I honestly hope you succeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdamG

Well good luck to yah. Post up pics of it as you go along. If nothing else it will be interesting. I honestly hope you succeed.

---

Much appreciated. I'll post updates as I go along.

I'm still interested in what everyone else has to say!

How will you check core density? what if there is a thin spot or an area that did not release all of the vapors which might of created an aerated section of the manifold, then it lets go under boost. Also when all said and done, what are the actual benefits of one completing a roots style vs a centrifugal vs price..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoeHorsePower

How will you check core density? what if there is a thin spot or an area that did not release all of the vapors which might of created an aerated section of the manifold, then it lets go under boost. Also when all said and done, what are the actual benefits of one completing a roots style vs a centrifugal vs price..

---

Pressure test, block off all ports and pressurize it would be my idea. If you look at the runners of Cornel's build, they are quite thin. I plan on casting mine a lot thicker.

Its all about the market. I think a roots/twin screw looks great. Its the same reason why people choose turbo over supercharger. Its all based on the amount of work you want to do/ power you want to make

OK, At least you have in plans to pressure test, I agree on looks also, to a point, I still love the sight of a 871 blower sticking out of the hood, though not as efficient as today's Forced Inducted setups..

Wouldn't it be easier to just modify the SC for a sbc? Don't you only have to change the bolt pattern and block off the waterneck and distributor?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ginoz28

Wouldn't it be easier to just modify the SC for a sbc? Don't you only have to change the bolt pattern and block off the waterneck and distributor?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

---

I think height is a big issue, and that is what restricts doing what you just described.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shownomercy

I think height is a big issue, and that is what restricts doing what you just described.

---

There is a reason no one has really done it on an fbody LTX. I wish I could find a cracked whipple housing for testing purposes. I've been cranking hard getting my projects out of the way to get ready for this prototype.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nateleduc

There is a reason no one has really done it on an fbody LTX. I wish I could find a cracked whipple housing for testing purposes. I've been cranking hard getting my projects out of the way to get ready for this prototype.

---

Honestly, its mainly because for the work and money invested for the roots setup won't net you as much as a simpler turbo setup. I have maybe 3-4k in my setup and I can range from 3-5psi up to 15-20psi with a button change in the cabin (simplified yes)

:popcorn:

Fitting those injectors is gonna be a problem with how wide the SC is. The fords 5.4 can do it because how wide the intakes are. You will have raise it up to high and won't fit under the hood.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ginoz28

Fitting those injectors is gonna be a problem with how wide the SC is. The fords 5.4 can do it because how wide the intakes are. You will have raise it up to high and won't fit under the hood.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

---

Look at Cornel's website. The whipple 175 fit with what looks like stock modified rails. I agree it will be tough, but in the end should be worth it. If no one buys it, atleast I'll have something unique.