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I sorta condensed this thread into a Youtube video as a resource for 4th gen owners who want to get into trackdays. The resources for our cars suck since FFRAX is difficult to get into and FB is filled with braindead comments, so I figured this would help. I literally only know 1 semi-local guy who tracks a 4th gen and I want there to be more out there to help me shit on Porsche and BMW owners.
https://youtu.be/-mbkChV6hRE
Did you do a write up or anything on the master cyl bracket?
Nah, but here are some pics. Making it should be pretty straight forward with crap from the hardware store or McMaster. L bracket is 2x2.5x3/16". Use 1/2-20" bolt or larger fine thread with nut and washers, tap through the L bracket near the centerline of the MC. I ground the end of the bolt to a V shaped point and have it seated into a little washer/disk shaped thingy I had floating around the garage. I made a countersink into the washer/disk so the bolt would seat and stay centered, but you could accomplish this with with a thick fender washer. Also, remember to use some thick fender washers under the L bracket to clear the folded sheet metal piece at the top of the strut tower. You'll need longer bolts to replace the torx strut bolts and washers for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by shownomercy
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I threw this shit together so fast that I forgot to paint it lol. Alternatively, you could buy a fancier piece from Strano.
Here's the Strano piece: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...ID=5&ModelID=2
I got enough scrap mild steel laying around to fab something up.
Cool video, thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Nolan
Spent the day getting the 4pt fitted. I got around to designing load plates to dodge my subframe connectors and had Sendcutsend laser cut them for $30 shipped, what a deal.
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I went overkill with the welds, but better safe than sorry. Lap joints on the longest edge, diagonal under the main hoop, and underside, edge welds all around, and 2 plug welds (pic is before I finished them).
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Bolted up, but I still need to finish making the sandwich plates [?] for the underside. I know most orgs want the lower plate to mimic the shape of the load plates and have all bolts run through, but I don't have that luxury. I can do a large plate for 2 bolts per side and then a separate large/thick fender washer for the 3rd. Not ideal, but I'm not cutting these Kenny Brown's out.
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I also have to figure out where I wanna fab and mount sub brackets for the harnesses. The Corbeau passenger seat will be easy since it doesn't have a slider and I can mount a crossbar to the metal seat base. The driver will be more difficult since IDK about mounting it to the seat brackets the same way. If the slider breaks in an accident then my sub moves, seems sketchy. Maybe mount it to the floor somewhere?
Very nice!
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Mine is bolted to the floor with a 3x3x1/8" plate and a hardened 1/2" bolt towards the rear of the seat, that way it is in shear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmaigne
5pt I'm guessing? I have a 6pt FIA which needs to be directly under the seat hole to 20deg back and the 2 belts need to be 4-6" apart. Hopefully I can dodge the ribbing in the floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSlowBoat
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yes 5pt, ah gotcha. nhra guideline is behind the front of the hole in seat minimum 20% but us nhra guys have to also have the back of the fixed back seat secured to the cage/rollbarQuote:
Originally Posted by Catmaigne
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Cage in and harnesses installed. I had to drill into the floor for the sub belts but it wasn't a big deal.
Also demoed everything at NJMP Lightning yesterday and managed to slash 1.5s from my old PB thanks to these Bridgestones. New camera and lap timer as well. The audio is a little goofy since I left the wind noise suppression on, my bad.
Traffic at this Track Night was really bad and there were a bunch of black flags. My best lap came later in my 3rd/final session, but I know I can break into the 13's if I do a full trackday with more time and get lucky with no traffic on the first 2-3 laps (when these tires are the fastest). Optimal was showing 1:14.1.
https://youtu.be/vqhyIsf5z3E
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Awesome, onboard videos are great, appreciate you sharing them with us. Love the telemetry(sp) setup and NO brake noise!
Nolan
I did another track day at Thunderbolt over the weekend with some coworkers and friends. I wasn't chasing times since I spent most of the day giving ride-alongs, but I did manage to get within 0.5s of my PB from June. I also got to chase around a S2000 that was prepped for time attack most of the session. Those Club TR cars are no joke!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeMQCZvGUEA
Also, I think I need more camber again since the shoulders are wearing quick. What was good for the RS4 kinda sucks for the RE71RS since the grip is so much higher. I'm at -2.2 now but I want to put it back to -2.7.
Awesome, thanks for sharing.
Some pics from recent trackdays.
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Also redid the alignment since tire wear was 1 to 1.5/32 more on the outer shoulders than inner. It should also reduce some understeer. About a half degree more camber and I evened out the caster since it's maxed on the left side. Hair more toe out but it's only about 1/32" total and I didn't feel like readjusting lol.
Before:
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After:
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I guess its just my eyes, but in both photos, the negative camber seems very noticeable. Seems like the inside of the tire shoulders would be wearing more?
The 1st photo is at the end of the front straight and probably in the braking zone since the front suspension is compressed and the rear is lifted more than usual. There's no avoiding camber gain when the nose dives under braking unfortunately and you will lose some braking grip. People try to work around it by increasing the front spring rate a ton or running tall bumpstops, but both of those things will make the car horrible over curbing or create understeer. They also try to boost the caster a ton so they can run the camber lower (caster creates camber gain only with the wheel turned), but the gain is really small in comparison, creates jacking issues, and makes the steering uncomfortably heavy. I did a calculation and found that +1 degree of caster for my car only adds about -0.13 degrees of camber with the steering wheel rotated 90 degrees which is most turns. Not worth it imo, static camber is way more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by JOATMON
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I looked at the 2nd pic closer and added some lines. Red is the ground, green is body roll, and blue is the wheel axis. The blue and red are a hair over 90 deg apart so a little more neg camber would help the tire bite more and reduce the angle a little. The tire sidewalls also deflect in the turn so the outside edge gets pushed into the ground while the inside edge can curl upwards. Larger tire sidewalls and running too wide of a tire for a given wheel width make the effect worse meaning you'll need even more camber to compensate.
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I run a 285/30 on a 10.5" wide wheel. The short sidewall and light stretch let me get away with less camber than if I was running a 315/30 (assuming equal grip), but the -2.1 still wasn't enough for these RE71RS tires. I measured a couple spots that used to be 0.200" when the tire was new and saw that the outside shoulders were about 0.030-0.040" more worn than the insides, so I definitely need more camber. The best way to set camber is by using a tire pyrometer to measure temperatures across the tread, but getting the temps right doesn't necessarily mean even wear. I'd rather have even wear since it'll get me the longest tire life since these things are so expensive lol.
Also, I just ordered another set of RE71RS in 295/30 for next season. Tirerack had new old stock tires from 2021 marked down to $220ea ($385ea usually) so I jumped on it.
I made some wheel spats to try to direct air out from under the nose and out the side. They are angled but it's hard to tell from the pic. Still need to add more brackets to make them more rigid.
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Eventually I want to build an airdam shaped like this and relocate the brake ducts to the bumper with naca inlets. It's kinda like what you'd see on a 3rd gen, C5, and C4.
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Thanks for the lesson, never too old to learn. Makes perfect sense. If you lived near by I'd get you to make mine drive better. LOL
Nolan
I started thinking about the 355 LE2 motor I'm piecing together again since the season is almost over. I was hoping to get the block to the machine shop soon since I'm sure they'll be super busy over winter.
I found myself reading some reviews for the Morel 7717 (Summit HT217) LS7 style lifters on the Summit website when I stumbled upon this... here we go again
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What he's saying is true. The lower bushing area (wheel side) of the Morel lifter body extends too far down and completely blocks the oil galley holes when the lifter is at the peak of a cam lobe. This means oil will have a much harder time making it to lifters at the front of the engine. I double checked this myself with a stock cam and it's true for gen 2 LTx too.
The pic below has a Johnson 2110 on the left, Morel 7717 in the middle, and OE LT1 lifter on the right. I put a red line where the bushing area ends on the Morel. It extends about 0.165" farther down compared to the others. Morel also says that these lifters are compatible with gen 1 and 2 engines, but that seems like bullshit and bad engineering.
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I'm just gonna run some Delphi LS7s from BTR since my cam is lazy enough. I can't find anything better short of buying Johnson 2110Rs for $750. If I was forced to drop that much on lifters then I'd be shopping for a much better cam and springs.
I'd run linkbar lifters before spending that much on JohnsonsQuote:
Originally Posted by Catmaigne
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Seems like they're all $600+ with most of them being private label Morels or Comps that break all the time. I'm too cheap for nice Crowers or Iskys. Sucks that there's no decent mid range lifter like the Johnson 2110/SLR anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSlowBoat
think blackbird is running lunati link barsQuote:
Originally Posted by Catmaigne
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From what I gather, Lunati (and a bunch of other brands) was just private label Morel stuff in various flavors. You could get meh street series linkbars or fancy fork body ones with 0.750" wheels. Idk if that has changed but it seems like a lot of their stuff got discontinued and they barely have anything on their site. Morel also discontinued a bunch of part numbers and consolidated them all into the 7717, but this new design sucks for anyone without an LS. COVID really did a number on the lifter market.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSlowBoat
shows what was coming from overseas and what was notQuote:
Originally Posted by Catmaigne
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^^^^What he said. I can believe that. Seems like deja vu. Back about 20 something years ago all the hydraulic lifter mfg in the US shut down to about two if I remember correctly.
None of the cam manufacturers could supply you with lifters because they all came from the same places(that shut down).
For what it's worth I went with a middle of the line Howards when I did my top end overhaul. part#91160 I'm pretty sure they are made by Morel(at least the body).
They go 6500 no problem with Howard double springs.
Nolan
Wow, I just looked them up and they are getting between 535-640 bucks a set nowadays. I'd hate to price a top of the line. Just checked my file and I gave $439 for them in 2016
Summit is getting $629 nowadays.
I think those Howards are actually one of the few exceptions and are made by Gaterman instead of Morel. I wish there was more info and reviews on the Gaterman GP1013 drop-ins since I have no idea what their track record is. They actually differentiate between LS and LT/SBC OE roller lifters.Quote:
Originally Posted by JOATMON
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I really wish Johnson still made the 2110 at $400-450 since that seemed like a super robust lifter at a great price. I've had them in my Camaro for years and they've been great. Nowadays, $450 buys you shitty GMPP LS7s or spend a little more for the questionable Caddy racing ones.
It's always been so iffy about who really makes specific brand lifters. In a long ago conversation with Kip Fabre (the owner of Cam Motion in Baton Rouge) he was the one that told me about all the lifter manufacturers going out of business. IIRC it would have been the late '90's or 2000. I was building a BBC and you couldn't find a set of hydraulic lifters anywhere. He tried to talk me into going low lash solid roller because solids were available.
If you want to get the truth about who makes what, he is the man.
According to this Mopar source, the Howards are Morel's ?;
Our Howards Cams Street Series Retrofit Hydraulic roller lifters are 100% USA Made in Cleveland, Ohio by MOREL. Morel started making lifters over 55 years ago for Eaton, and they now operate out of a 100,000 square foot manufacturing plant in Cleveland with over 100 pieces of manufacturing machinery, and they do all their own heat treating in-house, allowing them to maintain full metalurgical control. Sales and engineering for Morel is now handled by John Callies (of Callies Crankshaft fame.) They have grown to become an OEM lifter manufacturer for many other well known brand names such as Howards, Trick Flow, Erson, Lunati, etc. These high performance street lifters are designed primarily for ease of maintenance and reliability. They "drop into" a stock block with no machine work or oil system mods required, and work with all the steel billet hydraulic roller cams we sell, regardless of brand. The lifters have the bodies shaped with cold form technology, then Carbonitrided and tempered for proper hardness and maximum durability. They are then CNC-machined and fitted with precision check ball internal valving to prevent lifter "pump up." The roller wheel is hardened and tempered steel alloy, and the cross bars are made from heat treated stainless. These features combine to provide a broader power band and increased rpm potential, while still offering the low maintenance of a hydraulic cam. These are designed for street performance enthusiasts who want to upgrade to a hydraulic roller camshaft. These retrofit hydraulic roller lifters are specifically designed for street applications up to 6,500 rpm. Roller diameter is .700", and seat height is 2.661"Howards part number 91767.
It appears CamMotion has the 2110's that you spoke of, but the are pricey. What I kind of like about this cam grinder is the don't call them CamMotion lifters, they call them what they are. https://cammotion.com/lifters/ls-lif...nes-set-of-16/
I have no connection to them other than Kip freely gave me alot of technical help in the past. He's awesome.
Nolan
Yeah it's a total crapshoot trying to figure out who makes what anymore. There's so much private label junk out there and no variety when it comes to hydraulic roller streetcar stuff. It seems like everything under $750 Johnsons might not be any better than stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by JOATMON
I guess I gotta roll the dice with some Delphi LS7s from BTR. Apparently the GMPP and Delphis come from the same place? The price difference is insane at $180 vs $465 though. None of this makes sense.
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I went thru that years ago and hit the fuck it button for crower link bars.
I would consider linkbars if it was guaranteed I could remove them with the heads on. The spider tray seems fine though and I've never had an issue with it.
AFAIK these are all the drop-in "performance" hydraulic roller designs available. All of the cheap low or mid tier lifters from reputable brands are going to be one of these reboxed. Cheaper linkbar variants (<$1000) are probably going to have the same internals as these...
1. Delphi LS7/GMPP LS7 - $180-465, drop in, 1018 carbon steel body, swedged axle, probably made in Mexico, Delphi/GMPP are potentially the same, known for collapsing with heavy duals
2. GMPP Caddy Racing - $560, drop in, 1018 body, swedged axle, appears to have identical body/roller/axle/bearings as regular LS7s except with black oxide coating and Chevy logo, internals are supposedly lighter, might have slower leakdown?
3. Morel 7717 - $215, claim to be drop in LS7 replacements but have an “Eaton” style body, 1018 body, retainer clip axle, probably made in Mexico, probably similar valving to LS7s
4. Johnson 2110R - $765, drop in, slower leakdown rate, 1018 body, swedged axle, USA made, made with fairy dust apparently
5. Gaterman GP1013 - $250, drop in, similar in construction to Howards 91160, fork style body but made of “chrome alloy” steel (5140? No mention of moly), swedged axle, made in China but designed by Crane Cams engineer, leakdown probably better than LS7s
6. Hylift Johnson A-2148SE - $560, drop in, axle oiling, appears to be swedged axle in photo but claimed to have c-clips, mystery body material, USA made and allegedly good for 160lb on the seat, better leakdown than LS7s
7. Hylift Johnson A-2281SE - ???, I think these are basically the same as the A-2148SE but with an "Eaton" type body for LS engines
7. Comp Evolution 85001-16 - $615, has some goofy construction where the hydraulics are in a removable catridge, smaller piston circumference and higher likelihood of sticking, probably heavy, possibly made by Hylift Johnson, could be strong as hell though? New and little info available, probably decent leakdown characteristics
8. Comp 850 and 875… I'll pass, read the reviews lmao
Adding more mud to the mix...
Crower sent me these pics of their drop in lifters 66330 and 66330HP (HP=high pressure axle oiling).
Karl Ellwein has used the 66330 on builds in the past, but it's possible that he was using a different version as the stock photos show both old LS7s and Eaton bodies. The current supply is definitely Eaton though and it looks identical to the Morel 7717 on my desk down to the axle snap ring.
The 66330HP is a conundrum though. I think this is a Hylift Johnson A-2281SE since the axle oiling groove and swedged axles look like their work, but I can't find any photos of them. The oil inlet cut and oil band location scream 2281 though.
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I thought shopping for lifters would be easy.... holy fuck I was wrong
Yea, def downside to link bar is the head issue.
I had to cancel Pocono this week since I need new wheels. I've been periodically inspecting these OEWheelsLLC reps for a long time now and have never found any issues until now. 2 out of 4 wheels have several small cracks on their spokes. Coincidentally, both of the cracked wheels were on the LH side of the car since switching to the grippier RE71RS tires. All of the tracks I've been on since installing those tires run clockwise and the LH side gets loaded more frequently. I also noticed a slight vibration coming on at the end of the last track day, but I chalked it up to the trans being wonky again or paranoia. Hopefully it's the wheels?
I knew these wheels weren't going to last forever since they have 30 track days/nights on them and my plan was to replace them over winter anyway. They are cheaper reps, but OEM Speedline spokes aren't indestructible either and will crack their cast spokes the same way. Track wheels are always a wear item unfortunately.
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I still have Pittrace on the calendar for mid Oct that I can't cancel (no refunds), so I ordered a set of 18x11" Spec Corvette wheels in gunmetal to throw on. They'll look like this:
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FWIW the Howards 91160 tie bars drop in with the heads on. If you look at my top end rebuild thread you can see a photo of mine being installed with the heads on.
Nolan
I wondered before about where the limits were on cast aluminum wheels versus forged. Seems you found the limit point. Them cracks are scary.
I don't think it's a cast vs. forged thing honestly, it's more about load rating. A typical forged wheel is going to be lighter with thinner walls/spokes but keep the load rating the same compared to it's cast counterparts. These reps have a pretty low 1450lb load rating and the backs of the spokes are thinner than OE so I'm not surprised they didn't last. Dedicated track wheels will have a higher load rating and these flow formed spec vette ones are at 1800lb apparently. The forged versions of them have the same rating at a lighter weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by JOATMON
I ran OEM C5 ZO6 wheels on my GMC Sonoma for years and also ended up with cracked spokes. It didn't see track use, but it was heavy (3400#), on sticky tires, and saw hundreds of autocross runs on rough pavement. Better to find the cracks now than with a failure on course.
Where did you source your spec vette wheels?