Car will only shift when OFF [Archive]

Counted Out

08-08-2009, 10:49 PM

So I did my first clutch swap recently and thanks to you guys, everything went pretty smoothly.

I fired her up today, but when I went to put the car in gear, it wasn't going to happen. I turned the car off and noticed I could shift the gears while the car is off, even without pushing the clutch in. So I shifted the car into first, started it, and I was able to drive. But as soon as I put the car back into neutral to shift into another gear, it just would not go into another gear. So here's a break down of the problem:

1. I can shift the transmission, with the car off, without even using the clutch.

2. The car will not shift once started.

3. If you shift the car into gear (while off), then start the car, you can drive in that gear.

Someone PLEASE help the newb.

Tarheel'Z'

08-08-2009, 11:00 PM

when you start it in 1st does it take off even with the cllutch pedal in??

Fastbird

08-08-2009, 11:06 PM

Agree with Tarheel Z. I'm thinking your clutch isn't disengaging.

Counted Out

08-08-2009, 11:10 PM

when you start it in 1st does it take off even with the cllutch pedal in??
Nope. You gotta give it gas to get it going.

Someone mentioned the possibility of the clutch disc being on backwards, but would that cause this problem?

Fastbird

08-08-2009, 11:45 PM

Nope. You gotta give it gas to get it going.

Someone mentioned the possibility of the clutch disc being on backwards, but would that cause this problem?

quite possibly as the offset of the center section is different. But......you would have had a hell of a time reassembling the clutch if that was the case. I've seen one put back in backwards once, and the install was stopped because it just wasn't going together easy enough.

Counted Out

08-08-2009, 11:46 PM

I have a really ghetto clutch fluid cap that mite be letting air into the system. I just thought of that. So if anyone has an extra cap, PLEASE, let me know.

I'll check it tomorrow.

popo8

08-08-2009, 11:59 PM

I responded to your request for the cap. Did you check with GM, since you cant find one....

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 12:03 AM

I responded to your request for the cap. Did you check with GM, since you cant find one....
Did you message me on here? If so, I didn't get it.

GM doesn't have a part number listed for just the cap.

95formula383lt1

08-09-2009, 12:06 AM

junk yards have alot of them around here, cuz the 3rd gens caps are the same. so 1982-1997 5 speed and 6 speed use the same caps, also v6 birds do too, not so sure about ls1 cars though

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 12:15 AM

junk yards have alot of them around here, cuz the 3rd gens caps are the same. so 1982-1997 5 speed and 6 speed use the same caps, also v6 birds do too, not so sure about ls1 cars though
I was told that LS1's don't.

There is only one Pick-A-Part here and the last time I went I only saw like one 4th Gen and maybe 2 3rd Gens. It mite be worth the drive out there to check though.

popo8

08-09-2009, 12:16 AM

You are on the other end of the Country from me , but I will still check for you.

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 12:19 AM

You are on the other end of the Country from me , but I will still check for you.
Dude, that'd be sweet.

If the 3rd Gen caps are the same, I think I remember seeing a generic cap at PepBoys that said it worked for Late 80's GM Cars - I'll have to give it a shot and report back.

So don't go out of your way quite yet.

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 12:21 AM

Just found one locally, thanks Cross!

I'll see if that fixes the problem.

popo8

08-09-2009, 12:22 AM

Dude, that'd be sweet.

If the 3rd Gen caps are the same, I think I remember seeing a generic cap at PepBoys that said it worked for Late 80's GM Cars - I'll have to give it a shot and report back.

So don't go out of your way quite yet.

Gool Luck, let me know then.

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 03:27 AM

If the system is bled right, what else could it be? This is really bugging me. I do not want to tear this transmission down again. :(

But you gotta do what you gotta do.

Tarheel'Z'

08-09-2009, 10:30 AM

Nope. You gotta give it gas to get it going.

does that mean with the clutch pedal pressed down the car will take off with some gas??

i dont think the cap is gonna help,,if the cap held the pressure you would have to bleed the system every time you took the cap off..its just like the brake fluid cap..just there to keep contaminents out of the fluid.all the action is happening further down the line ie master cylinder/slave

please correct me someone if im wrong as i am not a mechanic (unless shadetree counts) just wanted to chime in with my .02

95formula383lt1

08-09-2009, 11:21 AM

popo8

08-09-2009, 01:06 PM

My question for you, is did you actually lose the cap, or did it blow off????

Fastbird

08-09-2009, 01:42 PM

Just curious, but when you removed your slave cylinder, did the spring/ball end push out or stay retracted. IIRC if it stays retracted you're better off getting a new one at that point.

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 05:07 PM

does that mean with the clutch pedal pressed down the car will take off with some gas??

i dont think the cap is gonna help,,if the cap held the pressure you would have to bleed the system every time you took the cap off..its just like the brake fluid cap..just there to keep contaminents out of the fluid.all the action is happening further down the line ie master cylinder/slave

please correct me someone if im wrong as i am not a mechanic (unless shadetree counts) just wanted to chime in with my .02
Nope, if I start the car in gear the clutch works completely normal. I have to let out on the clutch and give it gas in order for the car to drive.

But I agree with your thinking, which is why I think it's something else now.

My question for you, is did you actually lose the cap, or did it blow off????
Just lost it.

Just curious, but when you removed your slave cylinder, did the spring/ball end push out or stay retracted. IIRC if it stays retracted you're better off getting a new one at that point.
I actually replaced the slave cylinder. The slave I took out had the plastic pieces cut off of the connecting rod, I left those pieces on the new slave - which is what the instructions said to do.

Is that correct?

Tarheel'Z'

08-09-2009, 07:04 PM

what kind of clutch did you use? new release bearing?

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 07:06 PM

what kind of clutch did you use? new release bearing?
Ram Powergrip.

I'm not sure which one the release bearing is? Is it the throwout bearing, the pilot, or something different?

Tarheel'Z'

08-09-2009, 07:47 PM

believe throwout

Counted Out

08-09-2009, 09:02 PM

believe throwout
Yeah, it comes with the new clutch. Isn't it the one like attached to the pressure plate?

Someone on CZ28.com says he had the same problem, with the same clutch, and it turned out the disc was too thick. I'm hoping thats not the problem.

popo8

08-09-2009, 09:11 PM

Very interesting problem, but well beyond my knowledge.... good luck man.

Tarheel'Z'

08-10-2009, 10:30 PM

Yeah, it comes with the new clutch. Isn't it the one like attached to the pressure plate?

Someone on CZ28.com says he had the same problem, with the same clutch, and it turned out the disc was too thick. I'm hoping thats not the problem.

sucks theres only one way to check,,you know ive never heard of that

Tarheel'Z'

08-16-2009, 08:24 PM

did you get this figured out?? ive been a little curious

Counted Out

08-16-2009, 08:37 PM

did you get this figured out?? ive been a little curious
I just went out there to play with it a little bit more and I realized the car does take off quite a bit even with the clutch pressed it. I'm working with about 5 feet of space on both sides of the car, so I never noticed this before as I was always quick to hit the brakes. That means the hydraulics need to be bled right?

If so, I'm jacking up the car after I make this post and bleeding that slave until the sun comes down.

Update tonight.

Tarheel'Z'

08-16-2009, 08:48 PM

that would def lead me to believe its in the hydrolics..good luck,, hope thats it

Counted Out

08-16-2009, 09:25 PM

Okay, so I got under there and pulled down the slave and the plastic retainer clip (that is supposed to break the first time the clutch is engaged) was still intact. This lead me to believe the slave was not fully opening up.

I also bled the clutch and there was some bubbles. After bleeding the clutch and reinstalling the slave, I am still having the same problems. I'm going to take down the slave again tomorrow to see if the retainer clip has broken yet or not, if it hasn't, I think there is something wrong with my hydraulics.

Chris

08-16-2009, 09:32 PM

Which retainer clip are you talking on the master? Just trying to remember when I swapped my clutch and I dont recall there being a clip to hold the rod in place

Counted Out

08-16-2009, 09:38 PM

http://ltxtech.com/forums/images/misc/wireless.gif

On the slave. There is a plastic retainer that holds the slave compressed to help make it easier to install. It has like a cap that goes around the ball point of the slave rod.

Sorry if that's confusing. It's hard to explain.

Counted Out

08-20-2009, 06:16 PM

Ughhhhhhh.

I filled the slave with fluid and reinstalled it. I heard the straps break, so it's getting pressure now. But I'm still having more or less the same problem.

1. I can still shift with the car off and not having to press the clutch, but no longer into reverse (I used to be able to shift into any gear).
2. I still can't shift when it's started, except for into first (used to not be able to shift into any gears). But even when putting it into first, it takes some force.

Who wants to help me push it off a cliff?

Tarheel'Z'

08-20-2009, 06:32 PM

what does the pedal feel like ?

Counted Out

08-20-2009, 06:42 PM

what does the pedal feel like ?
Feels great. If it was working right, I'd be very happy.

Tarheel'Z'

08-20-2009, 07:07 PM

Feels great. If it was working right, I'd be very happy.

wow man that sucks,,,i swear i dont mean any offence by this but are you sure everything was installed correctly on the clutch install?for some reason it sounds like the clutch isnt disengaging fully,,but why..guess you can do the disk to thick deal,,ive just never heard of that,,def doesnt mean its not possible though,,good luck with it man i wish i could come in person and help you because im gonna be doing the same job very soon..

maybe i could come visit my uncle in yuma,,lol

Counted Out

08-20-2009, 07:36 PM

wow man that sucks,,,i swear i dont mean any offence by this but are you sure everything was installed correctly on the clutch install?for some reason it sounds like the clutch isnt disengaging fully,,but why..guess you can do the disk to thick deal,,ive just never heard of that,,def doesnt mean its not possible though,,good luck with it man i wish i could come in person and help you because im gonna be doing the same job very soon..

maybe i could come visit my uncle in yuma,,lol
Oh no offense taken at all. This is my first clutch job and while I easily could have paid someone to do it, I like learning myself. I'm starting to think we mite have put the disk on backwards though.

Here's a question though. With everything hooked up, should the fluid in the clutch reservoir move (up or down) while I pump the clutch pedal?

Tarheel'Z'

08-20-2009, 07:47 PM

how much is it moving?,,mine doesnt appear to move

Counted Out

08-20-2009, 07:56 PM

how much is it moving?,,mine doesnt appear to move
It's not moving at all, I thought maybe it should be. So I'm thinking the system is bled right and the disk is on backwards. :(

Tarheel'Z'

08-20-2009, 08:07 PM

It's not moving at all, I thought maybe it should be. So I'm thinking the system is bled right and the disk is on backwards. :(

damn:(

Spartan7

08-21-2009, 01:13 AM

Ok, I posted in your other thread, but I'll just post here now.

First, I'll clear some things up. Since you can shift freely into all gears with the ignition off, most likely your tranny is good. So most likely this is a clutch or hydraulics issue. And the reason reverse is hard with the engine off is because of the reverse lockout solenoid. It's normal.

I have had both a RAM HDX and RAM Powergrip, with zero issues for both (not counting when I broke the first one from driving it too hard). That said, I have quite a few questions. This will help us better diagnose your problems.

1. I doubt you remember, but did the pressure plate say "Valeo" on it? Or "Made in China"?

2. Try to remember how you installed the clutch disc. As already said, it is highly unlikely you installed it backwards, as you'd notice something was seriously wrong. My guess is this is not your problem.

3. Did you replace the pilot bearing/bushing? (the part that sits in the crank)

4. How new are your hydraulics? You should not need an adjustable MC for either, but I want to know how old they are.

5. How did you bleed the hydraulics? Did you take them out and bench bleed them? What method?

6. Did you torque the pressure plate and flywheel bolts properly?

7. Did you have the flywheel resurfaced/replaced?

For some controversial info, it really doesn't matter if you cut that strap for the slave cylinder or not before installation. I've installed them both ways, and it just makes it easier for installation. Up for debate, but that's the way I see it.

My guess is it's the hydraulics. But answer all those questions so I can get a better idea of where you are. Clutch issues can be a huge PITA, and I've had quite a few myself. Hopefully we can get you rolling again.

Counted Out

08-21-2009, 07:32 AM

....
Okay, I'm going to try to take this piece by piece. But first off, where else did you reply on this? I checked on a few other boards, didn't see your reply. Maybe I'm forgetting one.

1. I actually do remember this, as I made a post asking about it. It doesn't say "Made in China", instead, it has a part number starting with a C (and no Valeo stamp). But yes, it is the Chinese one. I remember someone saying they pressure tested the Chinese one vs. a Valeo, and they both tested nearly the same.

2. I didn't install the disc, my dad put it up and he does not remember. I am almost positive the disc can go on backwards. The instructions that came with the clutch said that a "disc installed backwards would cause the clutch to not fully disengage." Also, on another forum I asked the same question and someone replied saying he installed the disc backwards once and had the same problem.

3. Yes.

4. The slave is brand new, I broke the original the first time I did the clutch because I didn't seat it to the fork right. I'm assuming the master is stock, but it doesn't leak and I never had problems with it before.

5. We took the slave out and press the rod in and let it come out. We did this until there was no bubbles. We've done it multiple times. We even filled the slave with fluid prior to installing it.

6. Yes. I double checked those too. We are using pressure plate bolts from a hardware store that were slightly longer, but they weren't long enough to go past the flywheel.

7. Resurfaced.

The straps ended up breaking the last time I pressed in the clutch. I can now jam the car into first, but I'm having the same problems. It won't go into reverse at all though.

Ninety5PoloZ

08-21-2009, 12:47 PM

When I installed my Spec clutch they have the label wrong and I installed the clutch backwards. I was doing my swap and had never done a T56 before and thought it was weird how hard it went together. Then I had a huge problem putting the clutch fork into place. I could get it into place, but it just didn't feel right. I called and emailed Spec and they told me that it was pretty much impossible to install the disk backwards and didn't believe me when I told them that it was labled wrong (it was marked flywheel side on the PP side)

I pulled my tranny and installed it the right way, but I never drove the car with it like that.

Good luck though man, but you will get good at pulling the tranny LOL, the last time I did mine me and my brother had it done in 47 minutes. That was pulling the tranny and bellhousing, pulling the PP, flipping the disk, reinstalling the PP, bellhousing, and putting the tranny back on. We were both just flying though, but I did it myself the first time in 3 hours.

Spartan7

08-22-2009, 01:41 AM

I didn't install the disc, my dad put it up and he does not remember. I am almost positive the disc can go on backwards. The instructions that came with the clutch said that a "disc installed backwards would cause the clutch to not fully disengage." Also, on another forum I asked the same question and someone replied saying he installed the disc backwards once and had the same problem.

I really hate to say it man, but this might be your problem. Sounds like you covered everything else really well. Since your Dad is an older guy, he might have experience with the traditional SBC, not knowing the LT1 is a reverse style clutch. So he might have installed it wrong, thinking it must be right.

You are probably going to have to pull the tranny again, just to see what's up. And, as Ninety5PoloZ said, you will get good at pulling the tranny. It's not nearly as bad the second time. Good luck!

Counted Out

08-22-2009, 05:23 PM

I really hate to say it man, but this might be your problem. Sounds like you covered everything else really well. Since your Dad is an older guy, he might have experience with the traditional SBC, not knowing the LT1 is a reverse style clutch. So he might have installed it wrong, thinking it must be right.

You are probably going to have to pull the tranny again, just to see what's up. And, as Ninety5PoloZ said, you will get good at pulling the tranny. It's not nearly as bad the second time. Good luck!
Second time? The second time was like 2 times ago. :whistle:

But thanks for the help guys. I'll update this thread as I find stuff out. On a side note though, the Ram tech was being very helpful and emailing me back - now he's ignoring my emails. :face_shocked:

popo8

08-22-2009, 09:35 PM

Second time? The second time was like 2 times ago. :whistle:

But thanks for the help guys. I'll update this thread as I find stuff out. On a side note though, the Ram tech was being very helpful and emailing me back - now he's ignoring my emails. :face_shocked:

Dont take it as ignoring, remember even the TECH guys get days off also...