LSX Familiar Guys..........Help Needed for my Vette

[Fastbird]

I have an absolutely MASSIVE oil leak coming from what seems to be ABOVE the passenger side turbo on my Vette. Problem is that I can't trace it down. My car left a HUGE puddle after about three seconds of run time today, with me laying under the car watching. All I see is oil all over the starter, bellhousing, turbo, and downpipe where it's flowing back (and I do mean FLOWING) and dropping off about 1/2 way back to the wastegate.

Is there anything on the passenger side of an LSx motor that could suddenly just fail and cause such a massive oil leak?

[Grr]

nothing there, the only thing it could be is the rear cover, which would run down the back, or the valve cover, which would take a min or two to start leaking. Sounds to me like the oil feed for the turbo got kinked

[Fire67]

My bets on the turbo oil plumbing as well... I just looked over my camaro and other than the valve cover, there's nothing that could cause an oil leak really. Except maybe the dipstick tube?

[Grr]

yeah i thought dipstick tube as well, but i started mine without it and it only dripped a little after a good min

[Fire67]

If it were the turbo drain that were kinked, you'd see smoke out the exhaust from the oil pushing passed the seals. Were are the turbo drains plumbed back into Sean? My bet is gonna be either the turbo oil feed line, or the drain depending on its location.

[Fastbird]

It's got to be the feed side. The drain system was just redone into a TurboWerx scavenge pump. Everything there is good. I'm going to go topside and have my wife run the car momentarily this evening and see if there's anything I can find.

[Fastbird]

Problem solved. The pressure feed line from the stock oil pressure sensor location to the oil distribution block had loosened. Put an earls fitting on the stock OPS adapter that gave some extra length, problem solved. Scavenge pump is working like a champ, turbo's are cooked clean and dry.

I'm a little unnerved though because the car is running VERY rough, like something out of balance rough when I free rev it. Even my wife made mention of it. I'm hoping it's just misfiring due to all the oil that got in the exhaust, and I know it's misfiring at idle because you can hear it.

[Fire67]

How was the oil getting IN the exhaust?

[Z28pr0jekt]

How was the oil getting IN the exhaust?
He never said it was I don't believe? He said it was ON the downpipe and such and puddled under the car

[Fire67]

He never said it was I don't believe? He said it was ON the downpipe and such and puddled under the car Thats the impression I was under untill his last post.


...I'm hoping it's just misfiring due to all the oil that got in the exhaust, and I know it's misfiring at idle because you can hear it.

Either way, oil in the exhaust shouldnt cause a misfire...

[Z28pr0jekt]

ah my apologies, I missed that one part.

[Fire67]

None neccessary man... Easy to miss, lol

[Fastbird]

Oil was getting IN the exhaust because the turbo scavenging pump took a crap once hot. Turbo oil had nowhere to go but through the seals into the exhaust via the turbine housings. Fronts checked out fine.

Still VERY nervous about the vibration though. Everything I'm researching is pointing to the tune being the #1 factor. I picked up some new 605's to toss in the car to help combat fouling while I'm breaking in on no boost, and if I get lucky my tuner for it will be available for a short session on Saturday to see if he can clean it up.

I need to get the pics and vid up (maybe tomorrow night) as I absolutely clam baked my 750 square foot garage last night. So much smoke it was unreal. There was (and probably still is) a lot of oil in that exhaust. Good news is that the turbo's cooked the exterior dry, and I got under the car briefly tonight after I got home from Autozone and everything was still bone dry.

[Speed Density]

Keep us updated Sean!

[Fire67]

So this is a new setup that your just getting going?

[Fastbird]

So this is a new setup that your just getting going?

Yup. Took it out for a spin today. That damn fitting tried to leak again, but I think it got it sinched down good this time. Just a little dribble of a leak today and I retightened in the garage.

But.........:( I'm getting serious "engine" vibrations. DEFINITELY not the tune. Ran it all the way up to 4K (easing it to it, new motor) today and it just got worse and worse the higher I went. Decel in neutral, vibe shallowed with RPM's as they dropped. Engine braking they stayed with the RPM's. idle would drop to 500 RPM, I'd lose the vibe. Come back up to 900 and it would come right back. Gotta figure this one out but I'm 100% stumped. Clutch was marked and went on the same way it came off. Pulleys were all tight and true, no wobbling. I dunno.........

Good news is that almost all the smoking has dissipated now.

Short vid (watch out if your on dial up, it's HQ qiucktime):
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i177/Fastbird93/Vette/th_DSCN5021.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i177/Fastbird93/Vette/?action=view&current=DSCN5021.flv)

Soon as it uploads I'll post up my smokeshow from Tuesday night. *Edit* Nope. Dammit. File got corrupted. Pics coming

*Edit x 2* Here's what the garage looked like after 5 minutes of running:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i177/Fastbird93/Vette/DSCN5014.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i177/Fastbird93/Vette/DSCN5016.jpg

[Fire67]

New engine and all? Damn sure hope its nothing major. But at this point Im stumped as well.

[Fastbird]

New engine and all? Damn sure hope its nothing major. But at this point Im stumped as well.

Yup, new engine and all. Well, used clutch/pulley, but both are zero balance pieces. I'm pulling what's left of my hair out with this one. I'm going to pull the belts and run it tomorrow morning and see if by chance its an accessory that's fubar (fat chance) and get under and see if there's anything that can be added/removed from the flywheel.

[Fastbird]

Looks like I've (hopefully) positively identified the problem, but fixing it is going to be another story. According to the following information I found on the Corvette Forum last night, the LS2/3 blocks have an extra bolt boss for the vehicle specific motor mounts. This is all fine and dandy until you use an LS1 vette mount. Then this new bolt boss pins against the flange keeping it from sitting down all the way. So look what I found on my car last night when I took a look:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i177/Fastbird93/Vette/DSCN5035.jpg

So tonight I tore out the water pump, A/C Compressor, and A/C Pulley bracket. And I STILL can't see what I need. I had to view through a mirror, but I am 100% positive that this boss is still there as I could see it pinned on the flange and the two bolts I could see were both showing threads between the flange and block. I either have to grind on the block, or notch the engine mount. TPE apparently notches the engine mounts, and I think at this point it's going to be optimal for me to do.

Can't say I'm too happy about having to be doing this when I feel it should have been caught as the motor was being installed. VERY surprised that whomever did the mount no that side didn't notice that it didn't sit flush against the motor.

So what do you guys think?? Could this be the source of my engine vibration give that I've got a block riding on a flange and a tight but not secure engine?? I swear on all things holy (and I'm not religious) that if this isn't the issue I'm going to lose it.

Oh, and now I'm absolutely committed to redoing my turbo inlets as the one tube I had to remove tore on it's way out of the car.

[Fire67]

I dont know man... You'd think that if the gap was there because of an extra boss on the block, and the bolts are tight, that it wouldn't move at all.

Only thing I can think of is this: Maybe the motor mount issue is causing something to sit against the body. Torque tube, bellhousing? That would definitely cause some vibration consistant with engine rpm.

[RealQuick]

I have a low idle shake going on too. Smooths out fine when I rev it though.

[Fastbird]

Son of a bitch. All that work for nothing. Same damn vibration as before. I don't know what I'm going to do now. I am really not comfortable trying to pull the drivetrain to get to the clutch on my garage floor. I don't have the money to spare to pay someone for it. NOTHING should be wrong, but something is terribly wrong.

Why can't a single big build I try to do end up just going easy??? Hell, I didn't even touch this one for the main part and it's still jacked up some how. WTF....seriously. This is REALLY REALLY bumming me out right now.

[Fire67]

Id talk to whoever put it together and try to get them to fix it no charge. They must have done something wrong.

[Fastbird]

Id talk to whoever put it together and try to get them to fix it no charge. They must have done something wrong.

We have to without a shadow of a doubt verify it's the motor. Tuner is going to take a look at it either tomorrow or Saturday. TSP Sent me the balance specs, how to interpret this I don't know:

TSP #3777

Rod Rot. 442g
Rod Rot. 442g
Rod Bearing 45g
Rod Bearing 45g
Oil Allowance 4g
Piston/Pin 581g
Rings 35g
Locks 4g
Rod Recip. 176g

Total: 1774g

Balanced: 2g

Don't know what to do. I'm going to have to tear the ENTIRE turbo system down to pull the TQ tube to get to the clutch.........to probably find there's nothing wrong.

[Fire67]

No clearance issues between any of the drivetrain and the body of the car? You'd think that with that motor mount sitting the way it is, that the drivetrain is sitting cocked. Question is if its enough to make it rub, or touch anything

[Fastbird]

No clearance issues between any of the drivetrain and the body of the car? You'd think that with that motor mount sitting the way it is, that the drivetrain is sitting cocked. Question is if its enough to make it rub, or touch anything

Would think that would have been fixed with the mount being clearanced though.

I swear though, something doesn't want me getting anything done on the damn thing. I left work early today so I could get home and get the car over to PBJ so he can look at it. It f-ing starts dumping on the way home. No go for that now, not with as skaty as the car is in teh rain not to mention the half exposed filters now. I'm so freaking pissed/stressed about this car it's not even funny.

[Fastbird]

OMFG.......not that I'm religious but someone REALLY doesn't want me to have this car running! I pulled the rack and balancer on Saturday, no change. No motivation on sunday until late in the evening, so only got the mid-pipes out and the car up in the air in prep for a TQ tube removal to get to the clutch. Today got the passenger side manifold dropped enough to get theh down pipe off, but the driver side manifold studs had two heads stripped, so no go there!

I am about to burn it all down.

I do at this point have it narrowed down to about three things given the nature of the C5 and the TQ tube setup: Thrashed pilot bearing, although unlikely, could be a culprit. Clutch improperly installed or out of balance, though out of balance is unlikely given it was fine on the old motor and had no weights added to the flywheel (talked to installer when I had clutch done, he remembers because it went in when he did the TT kit). Or.....internal engine. Talked to TSP today about the possibility, got told it would be a unicorn, but I'm not ruling it out. I will end up in a legal battle with TSP though because although I was told they'd cover shipping and repair if it was internal (it MUST come to them), they don't cover peripherals or someone elses labor. I will be seeking cost of gaskets, fluids, and the $2K labor I spent to have it put in the first time when I've got to turn around to do it all again my damn self.

[Fire67]

That really sucks man, and Ive been there before. All boils down to this, if you want it done right, do it yourself.

The motor in my TA now has been nothing but problems. It took a while, but Im now at the point were all the problems have been eliminated. Well as soon as I change out the heads anyway. Damn ported stock castings just dont like boost, lol.
Im just thankful that I never had to send the entire motor back to the person that built it. With my temper, I would have personally flown there with the motor and gone nuts upon arrival... Followed by a hasty retreat back to FL :secret:

[Fastbird]

Well, TQ tube is almost ready to go. I've got all the rear end stuff disconnected, just have to unbolt the front, get support, unbolt the rear cradle, angle, disconnect slave cylinder, and pull. Wish me luck......on finding a jacked pilot bearing causing the issues.

[Z28pr0jekt]

I hope it is something simply like that...

You deserve to get one of your monsters running to have some fun with

[Fastbird]

No dice, pilot bearing is good. Pulling clutch next to have it balanced to make sure.

Oh, and pulling the TQ tube YOURSELF on jackstands is the suck.

And to boot my drivers side turbo is absolutely leaking oil at this point. *!@$&(!$)!^&()@$&()!@$&*&(!$^!%^!*&)@$!@%^

I can't win.

[Fire67]

Damn Sean, sorry I didnt see your post sooner.

Yep, those TQ tubes suck even on a lift! Been there, and never plan to go back!

Why's the turbo leaking? Or should I say Where from?

[Fastbird]

From the exhaust side. It's from when the APS "scavenge" (if you can call it that) pump took a dump and let oil pressure build up and push past both turbo's seals.

Took the clutch to have balanced and it went on the machine and came right off. Perfect zero balance. I'm slowly putting the car back together enough to run it with the TQ tube off. Have the flywheel and passenger manifold back on, drivers side manifold was being a PITA last night so I said screw it. Just going to get the car together enough to run, I.E. no downpipes or wastegates, no pulley or rack, jsut enough to test fire for about 30 seconds ot see if it still vibes. If it does, I'm going to try to have a tuner come over and see what he can see. if it doesn't.......maybe time to upgrade the TQ tube and DEFINITELY putting in the new pilot bearing I picked up as the one that's in there is pushed in WAY too far.

More to come. When I get the motivation. I was going to tonight but had to bust out a couple of line locks and got cornered for a grocery store run.

[boosted95z]

I know this may sound stupid, but have you checked the o2 sensors? Oil getting on them can cause them to foul. Do you have a datalogger? If you do use it to check the mV coming off of them. They should go up and down smoothly, if they jump or start at a crazy number I'd try replacing them. O2 sensors are commonly overlooked.

I know when I did my LTs I just did a crimp job on the o2 extensions and when water got on them the car bucked like crazy, misfired, etc. But would drive decent under regular driving.

[Fire67]

Like boosted95z said, a tuner is just going to look and see if he can find any obvious problems with any of the data being output by the sensors. He may find something that is a quick and easy fix, you never know.

You've done compression and leakdown tests? A dead cylinder can definitely cause some vibrations. Id also inspect all the plugs to see any obvious signs that a cylinder is not firing. Could the coil packs be connected wrong? Ive heard of people with F-body's somehow getting the wiring swapped to the wrong side of the motor?

[Fastbird]

Plugs all looked find, O2's are not fouled out. I've got them hanging under the car right now actually. It's hard to explain so I dont fault anyone for making the suggestions, but if you could feel it you'd definitely say that it's mechanical too. The Tuner coming out if I have him do that would be a last ditch effort to find something wrong before pulling the motor.

[Fastbird]

Update -- Just ran it. No front pulley, no torque tube, no disk in clutch (flywheel and PP only, the unit as verified to be zero balanced), open turbo's. Still f-ing vibrating. Neutral revved to 5K and it just steadily got worse and worse, and when I let off the gas I could feel it start to subside as the RPM's fell.

I don't know what to do at this point. I kind of NEED this car to be running, and I don't have disposable cash to spend on a ton of extra parts that will be needed if I have to pull the motor to send to TSP. Then I'm also betting on TSP getting it and going "there's nothing wrong with it." I just don't know at this point.

[Speed Density]

Ever think its something further down the drivetrain causing the shake up front?

[Z28pr0jekt]

Ever think its something further down the drivetrain causing the shake up front?

I find that doubtful because neutral revving will not be moving anything in the drivetrain.

Sorry Sean but this definitely points to an incorrectly balanced Rotating assembly.

[Fire67]

Im with Ryan. Gotta be a balance issue.

[Fastbird]

Ever think its something further down the drivetrain causing the shake up front?

Hence the running it with the torque tube and differential laying on the ground behind the car.

Talked with nate today, and he was on the dyno with a tuner. Nate talked the tuner into showing him some stuff, and the tuner leaned the car he was working on way out and Nate said it was vibrating almost exactly like my car was. I'm going to scream if this is the case as I had an opportunity to get it to a tuner but dove head first into tearing it apart first. If anything, I got to get everything out and take care of a couple of small things.

I've decided I'm going to put it back together over the next couple of weeks, and then get it to a tuner to see what they can do. I'm going to look like a damn fool if it's tune related, but as noticeable as the vibe was, it just didn't seem tune related to me. Lots of extra work if it isn't the tune, but I'd rather be 100% sure than send a motor back to a manufacturer and have it come back clean.

[Speed Density]

You had the right mindset Sean, I woulda pulled stuff apart too.

Good luck, keep us posted.