T56 Fork suddenly hitting and clutch slipping

[SSlowBoat]

well, this is a problem I'm having a hard time finding info on. brand new clutch and flywheel, clutch was engaging/disengaging at very top of pedal travel. no issues going into gear. was downshifting blipped throttle, suddenly hear grinding noise, to the point engine stalls. release clutch pedal in gear and car restarts, notice I can't push clutch pedal down more than 1/3 before it grinds I'm assuming the fork on pressure plate.
-i can still shift gears fine, just can't depress clutch more than 1/3 of pedal travel
-clutch suddenly is slipping, it was holding great until this event occurred.

The car has stock hydraulics. is it possible, remotely, that the slave is overtraveling causing grinding, and not releasing all the way causing slip? or should I suspect busted pressure plate?

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[1QUICKZ28]

Try pulling the slave and make sure the pivot ball didn't break. Check clips on fork also. I'm betting something has the fork bound up. Not sure about slave traveling too far. I would think there's something that would prevent that from happening but I've never tried to tear one apart.


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[SSlowBoat]

Try pulling the slave and make sure the pivot ball didn't break. Check clips on fork also. I'm betting something has the fork bound up. Not sure about slave traveling too far. I would think there's something that would prevent that from happening but I've never tried to tear one apart.


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I don't understand how I could drive it for 40 miles and suddenly it fucks up

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[1QUICKZ28]

Don't rule anything out. Our cars are 20 plus years old now.


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[SSlowBoat]

Don't rule anything out. Our cars are 20 plus years old now.


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yeah true. I would just think that if the pivot broke it wouldn't go INTO gear easily. I can drive it, albeit baby it before it starts slipping, and have no difficulty shifting whatsoever. just can't push clutch more than 1/3 of way down or touch throttle more than 20%.

could a broken throw out bearing be causing the fork to go too far and also be binding up pressure plate fingers, thus causing slip?

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[1QUICKZ28]

That's possible. Seems like the bearings that come with most clutch kits for our cars are cheaply made. Corvette bearing is supposed to be the heavier option. I've had two bearings crack where the fork pulls on the bearing.


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[1QUICKZ28]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/82c0cb45fc6db974bb048010ba99cddf.jpg
The square one is the better of the two.


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[1QUICKZ28]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/445c6654e9a15586e53c21fcd21e8bef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/5b220c30ad0c89a39b222e41efd9294a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/ba4eb270bd88c856dd69a080bcde5727.jpg
After some research I guess anything is possible.


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[SSlowBoat]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/445c6654e9a15586e53c21fcd21e8bef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/5b220c30ad0c89a39b222e41efd9294a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/ba4eb270bd88c856dd69a080bcde5727.jpg
After some research I guess anything is possible.


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i was just looking at the same thread on the other site. well we will see, hopefully there's a clearly visible issue when I look at it in the morning. thanks man

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[1QUICKZ28]

Hope it's a simple fix. Good luck!


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[popo8]

Guess this is what ur messenger message was about on fb. Ugh.

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[SSlowBoat]

investigation reveals a previous idiot owner did thishttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/707dde3f40998a5731f2476bd64de231.jpg
yeah that's the slave rod with a glob of weld on it. we ground it down and it helped a little, but still fork grinds pressure plate.

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[1QUICKZ28]

Engineering at its finest. LOL!

That may be causing it to push too far which may be the cause of the fork hitting the Pressure plate.

If I'm remembering correctly there should be a half plastic ball on the end of that. Been awhile since I had mine out. New ones have it installed and keeps rod compressed for easier install. Straps break when you first hit the clutch.


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[SSlowBoat]

Engineering at its finest. LOL!

That may be causing it to push too far which may be the cause of the fork hitting the Pressure plate.

If I'm remembering correctly there should be a half plastic ball on the end of that. Been awhile since I had mine out. New ones have it installed and keeps rod compressed for easier install. Straps break when you first hit the clutch.


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we ground it down and it still hits pressure plate. plan is to order new stock replacement hydros to replace old McLeod tilton adjustable master and slave, we've surmised the system must be getting air in it and causing the slave to not release enough, thus causing clutch to only partially be engaged

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[BALLSS]

man someone did a hack job on that slave tip

It caused the clutch to over extend so the fork would then buzz the PP

Check to confirm a PO did not also cut down the slave spacer also in whatever attempt he had in trying to get a clutch to disengage when the problem was other issues.

as noted there should be a plastic cup on the end of the slave so you don't have metal/metal contact with fork. New slave will have it which would also be "strapped" to the slave body for easy initial install. Those straps break when you push the clutch in 1st time, normal.

The Tilton McLeod used to use as a MC had issues where they leaked. The hole the fluid goes through the bore is not chamfered and rubber cup of the plunger would tear on it. McLeod now uses the Wilwood MC. Nice unit

For a single disc clutch just get stock sealed hydraulics and install as a unit

FWIW the pic in post #7 is mine. I have posted it in various threads to show difference in the 2 TO bearings. The square top one was used in vettes. I run it in my McLeod Street Twin now. It came with a Spec clutch I used to have

[SSlowBoat]

man someone did a hack job on that slave tip

It caused the clutch to over extend so the fork would then buzz the PP

Check to confirm a PO did not also cut down the slave spacer also in whatever attempt he had in trying to get a clutch to disengage when the problem was other issues.

as noted there should be a plastic cup on the end of the slave so you don't have metal/metal contact with fork. New slave will have it which would also be "strapped" to the slave body for easy initial install. Those straps break when you push the clutch in 1st time, normal.

The Tilton McLeod used to use as a MC had issues where they leaked. The hole the fluid goes through the bore is not chamfered and rubber cup of the plunger would tear on it. McLeod now uses the Wilwood MC. Nice unit

For a single disc clutch just get stock sealed hydraulics and install as a unit

FWIW the pic in post #7 is mine. I have posted it in various threads to show difference in the 2 TO bearings. The square top one was used in vettes. I run it in my McLeod Street Twin now. It came with a Spec clutch I used to have
I've seen your posts on other sites about these issues before. question, the plastic ball adds thickness. when I first installed this clutch, pedal engage and disengage was at the very very top 1" of travel.

-wouldn't the cup being on the end effectively make it nearly as long as this numnut made it with welding a glob on end?

-is it possible the slave isn't fully retracting due to an issue with the hydros and basically keeping the clutch halfway engage/disengaged hence causing slip?

we ground it down so the slave rod was the original length, and it still buzzed the flywheel. I am ordering new stock replacement pre bled hydros now, hoping to have them before weekend, and gonna try to get zoom/summit to replace the pressure plate

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[popo8]

Is it hitting cause its bent now?

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[SSlowBoat]

Is it hitting cause its bent now?

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fork doesn't appear visibly bent or cracked.

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[BALLSS]

-wouldn't the cup being on the end effectively make it nearly as long as this numnut made it with welding a glob on end?

-is it possible the slave isn't fully retracting due to an issue with the hydros and basically keeping the clutch halfway engage/disengaged hence causing slip?

we ground it down so the slave rod was the original length, and it still buzzed the flywheel. I am ordering new stock replacement pre bled hydros now, hoping to have them before weekend, and gonna try to get zoom/summit to replace the pressure plate

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that glob welded on end looked to be thicker than what the plastic cup is but yes it extends the length of the rod vs not having it. It is there so you don't get metal to metal contact with the fork

yes it is possible the slave is not retracting far enough from pressure the MC may be keeping on it if it has a issue

I believe that Tilton also has a adjustable rod end which may be adjusted to far out

On the McLeod Street Twin when I installed it with their larger 13/16 MC that came with it my fork buzzed the PP before full clutch disengagement. Had to take about 1/8" off the "T" stud per McLeod. You should not have to do that with a single disc clutch

I suspect your issues will be resolved with new hydraulics....assuming the fork is not bent and on the "T" stud correctly and the lip of the TO bearing is not peeling back

[SSlowBoat]

that glob welded on end looked to be thicker than what the plastic cup is but yes it extends the length of the rod vs not having it. It is there so you don't get metal to metal contact with the fork

yes it is possible the slave is not retracting far enough from pressure the MC may be keeping on it if it has a issue

I believe that Tilton also has a adjustable rod end which may be adjusted to far out

On the McLeod Street Twin when I installed it with their larger 13/16 MC that came with it my fork buzzed the PP before full clutch disengagement. Had to take about 1/8" off the "T" stud per McLeod. You should not have to do that with a single disc clutch

I suspect your issues will be resolved with new hydraulics....assuming the fork is not bent and on the "T" stud correctly and the lip of the TO bearing is not peeling back

the rod end was nearly at end, I adjusted it down and all it did was bring the pedal down. fork still buzzed it. the fork does not visibly appear bent. but I have nothing to compare it to. throw out does not appear to be peeling or failing, although I'm gonna try to order a spec or centerforce this week if I can afford it.

with the old clutch when I bought the car, the clutch was very heavy. with the new one it was like butter until this suddenly happened, now it's stiff when going thru travel, and gets to an obvious spot you can feel when the fork hits.

does anyone have a measurement of the slave spacer? we removed it and tried just barely getting the nuts on the studs for the slave to see if spacing the slave back would help, but it still did the same thing.


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[BALLSS]

if the clutch was working and now it started the issue...sounds like hydraulics failed

I don't have a measurement for the spacer. since you went just the slave on with nuts barely on stud and it still does it...either mc or slave is bad

given what that slave looked like and you having the Tilton MC which had issues you should be good with the stock, new, hydraulics.....unless somehow your PP puked somehow

FWIW I never had a issue with the standard TO or square top one. They both are made offshore

[1QUICKZ28]

Let's think about this. Everything worked fine. Even with welded Rod. Then something happened. Ground the rod down and still have the same issue. Spaced the spacer and still doing the same thing. I'm suspect of something with the fork, pivot T block or throw out bearing. Keep us posted.


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[SSlowBoat]

Let's think about this. Everything worked fine. Even with welded Rod. Then something happened. Ground the rod down and still have the same issue. Spaced the spacer and still doing the same thing. I'm suspect of something with the fork, pivot T block or throw out bearing. Keep us posted.


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nothing visibly wrong with any of those 3 man. they all look ok. one thing I did notice is each time you push the clutch the slave comes out and doesn't return to the same spot each time. it seems to stay out .1 of an inch on each pedal cycle. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/f85a314d002157401a81286d49e50321.jpg pressure plate looks perfectly fine. throw out bearing looks just as Chinese cheap as it did when it went in. no tearing or bending of lip.

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[1QUICKZ28]

nothing visibly wrong with any of those 3 man. they all look ok. one thing I did notice is each time you push the clutch the slave comes out and doesn't return to the same spot each time. it seems to stay out .1 of an inch on each pedal cycle. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/f85a314d002157401a81286d49e50321.jpg pressure plate looks perfectly fine. throw out bearing looks just as Chinese cheap as it did when it went in. no tearing or bending of lip.

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I see you've had a busy day ripping everything out. Guess if everything looks good then only thing left is the hydraulics. Curious to see what you figure out.


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[SSlowBoat]

I see you've had a busy day ripping everything out. Guess if everything looks good then only thing left is the hydraulics. Curious to see what you figure out.


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I have one week to figure it out or I'm having a ltx bonfire/yard sale. first t56 car and I fucking HATE it

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[Brandon++S]

From my experience just be sure to buy the whole unit...master and slave together.

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[SSlowBoat]

From my experience just be sure to buy the whole unit...master and slave together.

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that's what I did. hope it's here by thursday

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[popo8]

fork doesn't appear visibly bent or cracked.

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Oh... cause that one pic u had on fb looked like it was bent good.

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[BALLSS]

what TQ did you do for PP bolts when you put the clutch in?

[popo8]

This is the pic that it looked bent in...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/326eeef66c975e2d074d5046effae2c9.jpg

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[SSlowBoat]

This is the pic that it looked bent in...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/326eeef66c975e2d074d5046effae2c9.jpg

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that's not a fork, that's the pushrod for the slave, which is being replaced

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[SSlowBoat]

what TQ did you do for PP bolts when you put the clutch in?
45, arp pp bolts

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[popo8]

that's not a fork, that's the pushrod for the slave, which is being replaced

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Yeah.. but thats what i was refn 2.

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[fullforce]

popo8 that picture does look bent.



I had the same thing happen to my last car, Or at least very similar.

Make a long story short, It was the first time I had pulled a t56 from a Lt1 and I didnt pull the fork out before trying to remove the transmission, I was prying on it and must have bent the fork slightly before I realized the fork had to removed to pull the trans.

I didnt think I bent it but when I put everything back together the fork was touching the pressure plate if I pushed the clutch down all the way.

I also thought my pushrod was suddenly to long but if I remember correctly I made a shorter one and it still contacted because the slave cylinder adjusts itself?
Kinda like when your brake pads wear down the piston just comes out a little farther to make up for the difference in thickness if that makes any sense.

[SSlowBoat]

popo8 that picture does look bent.



I had the same thing happen to my last car, Or at least very similar.

Make a long story short, It was the first time I had pulled a t56 from a Lt1 and I didnt pull the fork out before trying to remove the transmission, I was prying on it and must have bent the fork slightly before I realized the fork had to removed to pull the trans.

I didnt think I bent it but when I put everything back together the fork was touching the pressure plate if I pushed the clutch down all the way.

I also thought my pushrod was suddenly to long but if I remember correctly I made a shorter one and it still contacted because the slave cylinder adjusts itself?
Kinda like when your brake pads wear down the piston just comes out a little farther to make up for the difference in thickness if that makes any sense.
the slave pushrod that pushes the fork is bent, I don't know if it was bent before this issue, but with the way the rest of this car is, I'll strongly assume it was. it is being replaced with new hydros/pushrod. the actual clutch release fork that grabs the throw out does not appear bent, and I can't afford a new fork ($200 yikes) before dyno day to test that theory.

if anyone has a good clutch fork for less than the blood of my first born, and can get it to me by Friday this week, pm me.

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[fullforce]

Can you tell if the fork was hitting the backside of the pressure plate?

[SSlowBoat]

Can you tell if the fork was hitting the backside of the pressure plate?
oh yeahhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/448291dfda9e8dbaea337f570f121f34.jpg

not my pic, and mine isn't nearly as gouged, but looks the same on the edge, and can see the two contact points on the fork where.

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[fullforce]

Yep that's exactly how mine looked, not that bad though either. I don't remember if I bent the fork back or if I just grinded it out a little more but I didn't purchase another fork.

[SSlowBoat]

Yep that's exactly how mine looked, not that bad though either. I don't remember if I bent the fork back or if I just grinded it out a little more but I didn't purchase another fork.
I'm gonna grind some off the pivot tee

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[SSlowBoat]

well zoom sucks. they won't warranty the pressure plate that is 2/10" thicker on the mounting pads than the old one, said handle it thru summit. summit said they may not honor warranty since pp is damaged.

anyone used competition clutch

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[1QUICKZ28]

Spec stage 2 plus here. No issues with it.


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[SSlowBoat]

Spec stage 2 plus here. No issues with it.


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too expensive for me right now

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[1QUICKZ28]

Maybe go buy just the pressure plate from your local auto parts store and run the disc you currently have.


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[SSlowBoat]

Maybe go buy just the pressure plate from your local auto parts store and run the disc you currently have.


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advance and AutoZone don't sell just the pp anymore. didn't call Napa. gonna try to run the new zoom I have again, with a better disc

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[popo8]

Have u tried Josh or Gail?

Im not only an LTXtech member... Im also the Owner.

[superspirit]

I have a comp stage 2.5 under under my toolbox waiting to go in, but havent been able to kill the NAPA clutch thats in it. I fought this problem when I first built mine, once I took .-060 off the pivot pedestal I never had another problem.

[SSlowBoat]

Have u tried Josh or Gail?

Im not only an LTXtech member... Im also the Owner.
haven't contacted Gail yet. don't have spec kinda money thru josh. talking to Owen now for competition clutch. they have a stage 4 for like 325, or just the stage 4 disc for 178, looks identical to a spec, same material.

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[popo8]

haven't contacted Gail yet. don't have spec kinda money thru josh. talking to Owen now for competition clutch. they have a stage 4 for like 325, or just the stage 4 disc for 178, looks identical to a spec, same material.

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I mean for the piece ur trying to buy individually

Im not only an LTXtech member... Im also the Owner.

[SSlowBoat]

I mean for the piece ur trying to buy individually

Im not only an LTXtech member... Im also the Owner.
yeah, just spoke to gail, she said speak to Owen lol. spec 3+ needs the flywheel or pp diameter turned down. supposedly cc. uses stock replacement pressure plates

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[Catmaigne]

You don't need that much torque on the pressure plate. Spec is 22ft lb with blie loctite after seating it (do so in a star pattern, make sure it's flat, then torque). I usually torque my arps to 25-30 because I don't trust my torque wrench down that low.

All of the manufacturers use the c70043 china plate now because Valeo doesn't make their mexi pp any more. My spec 3+ is a china plate and so are the street twins.

If your plate was engaging fine before your hydraulics went haywire then the pp is probably still fine.

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[SSlowBoat]

You don't need that much torque on the pressure plate. Spec is 22ft lb after seating it (do so in a star pattern, make sure it's flat, then torque). I usually torque my arps to 25-30 because I don't trust my torque wrench down that low.

All of the manufacturers use the c70043 china plate now because Valeo doesn't make their mexi pp any more. My spec 3+ is a china plate and so are the street twins.

If your plate was engaging fine before your hydraulics went haywire then the pp is probably still fine.

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I'm looking at both the old and new pp right now and the fingers on the pp on the old one clearly have more angle than the new one does, which leads me to suspect the overtravel bent the diaphragm the wrong way too far and now it's weaker, hence the reason my clutch slipped on way home that night.

this zoom/brute power/perfection pressure plate has no numbers on it.

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[SSlowBoat]

I have a comp stage 2.5 under under my toolbox waiting to go in, but havent been able to kill the NAPA clutch thats in it. I fought this problem when I first built mine, once I took .-060 off the pivot pedestal I never had another problem.
what'd u trim the pedestal with ?

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[SSlowBoat]

fuck it. competition clutch sprung hub stage 4 on way. Owen recommended it, says it's living for 20k miles behind a 500whp procharged car, should live behind my puny heads cam build.

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[BALLSS]

Zoom was one of the clutches that died within a year after I went 383. Same for Spec 2+. Got the CC 2.5 ($199) and it started to slip

If you just have a bolt on or mild cam motor the Spec or CC would be OK

Since the PP is the same for all the clutch companies for the LT1 it comes down to the disc construction and friction type. Back when I had a H/C bolt on 350 I got a Autozone clutch kit and got a McLeod DF disc and that clutch work well on street & track

[SSlowBoat]

Zoom was one of the clutches that died within a year after I went 383. Same for Spec 2+. Got the CC 2.5 ($199) and it started to slip

If you just have a bolt on or mild cam motor the Spec or CC would be OK

Since the PP is the same for all the clutch companies for the LT1 it comes down to the disc construction and friction type. Back when I had a H/C bolt on 350 I got a Autozone clutch kit and got a McLeod DF disc and that clutch work well on street & track
think I'll be ok shortening the pivot at home? I have no access or anyone local with a machine shop to shorten it.

I have le2 heads cam headers tune. not a drag car. street stomper until I get my suspension sorted then road course autox stuff

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[superspirit]

what'd u trim the pedestal with ?

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A bench grinder and a pair of calipers and a square.

[BALLSS]

37631The "T" stud is hard metal. I was concerned about getting the cut straight and right amount so I took it to a machine shop I use. $20

If you gave a good bench grinder and can hold the T square to the wheel that should work

I had .125 taken off mine for my McLeod Street Twin. Never had a issue with single disc clutch though using the stock "T" stud length

[SSlowBoat]

37631The "T" stud is hard metal. I was concerned about getting the cut straight and right amount so I took it to a machine shop I use. $20

If you gave a good bench grinder and can hold the T square to the wheel that should work

I had .125 taken off mine for my McLeod Street Twin. Never had a issue with single disc clutch though using the stock "T" stud length
I have a comp stage 4 coming and new hydros. hopefully Saturday putting it back together. I got some really long bolts so I can bolt trans up, check it, if it hits again just slide trans back enough to unbolt the t and grind it then reinstall. thanks for all your help. maybe this new zoom/perfection stock clutch is just that much thicker.

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[SSlowBoat]

two questions: can I use regular bolts for the master? I don't have the ubolt, the old mcleod/cnc is studded. and secondly do I have to remove the steering shaft to get it out?

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[SSlowBoat]

old master/slave combo outskey https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170405/718526cbb8c3aab714d342d0f3d5a3b9.jpg definitely an old McLeod/cnc master cylinder. pulled dust boot and definitely appears to have a leak.

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[Brandon++S]

I think that u bolt stiffens everything up.

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[SSlowBoat]

I think that u bolt stiffens everything up.

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doesn't look like it, it doesn't grab anything on the master or body to support it. just acts as a stud holder basically from everything I'm looking at

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[Brandon++S]

That old one you pulled was metal I believe, if you ordered a factory replacement the tabs are plastic. That's what I meant by stiffens it up. I think the plastic will flex more, just my thoughts when I did mine.

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[SSlowBoat]

That old one you pulled was metal I believe, if you ordered a factory replacement the tabs are plastic. That's what I meant by stiffens it up. I think the plastic will flex more, just my thoughts when I did mine.

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they make fender washers for that very reason

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[1QUICKZ28]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170405/f8be316b6b8141dea62bdf2bd98793ac.jpg

I don't see it supporting much. IMO.

I would just bolt it on with washers. Your pushing a plunger not the Housing.


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[SSlowBoat]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170405/f8be316b6b8141dea62bdf2bd98793ac.jpg

I don't see it supporting much. IMO.

I would just bolt it on with washers. Your pushing a plunger not the Housing.


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yeah that pic really puts it in perspective thanks man, couple washers and hardened bolts sounds good

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[1QUICKZ28]

yeah that pic really puts it in perspective thanks man, couple washers and hardened bolts sounds good

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No problem. Just happened to be working on the kids car last night and snapped a pic for you. Hope you get it all worked out.


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[Spartan7]

The only reason they use a u-bolt is so that someone doesn't have to hold a wrench on the other side, you can bolt it up yourself. I've used regular bolts on a stock MC, and both versions of the McLeod MC (the newer one has screw-in studs and nuts) with no issues. I do not have to remove the steering shaft, but it does take some careful angling/finagling to get it around my headers.

[6 speed impy]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/445c6654e9a15586e53c21fcd21e8bef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/5b220c30ad0c89a39b222e41efd9294a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/ba4eb270bd88c856dd69a080bcde5727.jpg
After some research I guess anything is possible.


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Been there done that, had that happen in my Impy in the middle of Dover, nursed it home, only had to bump start it twice.

[SSlowBoat]

The only reason they use a u-bolt is so that someone doesn't have to hold a wrench on the other side, you can bolt it up yourself. I've used regular bolts on a stock MC, and both versions of the McLeod MC (the newer one has screw-in studs and nuts) with no issues. I do not have to remove the steering shaft, but it does take some careful angling/finagling to get it around my headers.
yeah it was fun sliding it around the harness/shaft and headers last night getting the old one out. thanks man

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