4L80E weighs 65# more than a 4L60E

[CPT]

I just happen to have a 4L80E that we just built so I took the opportunity to weigh it compared to a 4L60E. Both are 4WD units. The '80E is a fresh build, so it's dry, with no accessories. Total 4L80E weight is 190.6#. The 4L60E has fluid in it and has the transfer plate bolted to it with an MLP switch and linkage. Total 4L60E weight is 125#.

29117291182911929120

[CPT]

We're trying to work out some further back to back testing. The only problem is, we can't find anyone who wants to take one of our 4L60Es out to put one of these boat anchors in it...LOL. As I've said, we did tests years ago and seen an 80E slow a car down ATLEAST 2/10 in 3 different cars. Dyno tests showed 50 less RWHP. Anyone out there silly enough to put a 4L80E in their F-Body and let us do some testing and then we'll put one of our 4L60Es in it and watch it run 2/10s faster?

Frank

[dawdaw]

Doesn't a 375 output shaft on a 400 have the same diameter and spline count as a 60e.... just curious is all. My car used to have a 60e. And when I bought it the owner had put a 400 in it with a 9" tail... then when I rebuilt the trans last winter I noticed the output shaft wasn't a 400 output... The retard that had built the trans before me had theforwarddrum installed onto the last clutch in thedirect drumcausing a loaded (no endshaft play) assy that took out the directed spag and race and center support . 2nd gear was like trying throwing a ship behind your car lol. Merely curious cause he said he was able to re use the drive shaft (not cut it) and it fit perfect. They must be the same length and output shafts the same? Sorry for the rant I don't know anyone else I could ask.

[CPT]

Yes, the 375 uses the same spline as a 200/350/700/4L60E.

Frank

[xDetroitMetalx]

I'll be more then happy to run your 4L80E boat anchor! lol

Nice to see some legit write ups on your side of the 4L80E vs 4L60E debate.

[firebird_1995]

I'll be running an 80e in my Monte at the shootout

[popo8]

Frank... when u are able to put all the comparisons together...id love to help put it together here and sticked.

LTXtech.com is my Drug...

[shownomercy]

Feeling a good internet argument today, so leggoo

60e to 80e dyno
http://gonicd.com/silverado/images/4L60vs4L80.png

50whp loss right CPT?

[CPT]

`Anyone can use crayons to make a dyno graph. It doesn't make it the truth. As I've already stated numerous times. I've witnessed dyno pulls and quarter mile times with the same vehicles. Were you there when these dyno pulls were done? Probably not. You can choose to drink the "Jakes Kool Aid" if you want. Most of the other stuff on his FAQs page is BS as well. But, if you can ONLY build a 4L80E to hold up, I guess you'll do anything you can to try to disillusion people.

Frank

[shownomercy]

Discredit it all you want, so far you have only provided a solid weight comparison, otherwise, its all hearsay.

Awaiting some solid back to back numbers to credit your claims. Until then, you are being quite the hypocrite with the "kool aid" comment towards 80e builders but are essentially doing the same with the 60e pushing.

Facts here would be nice.

[CPT]

LOL... How many transmissions have you built in the past 24 years? I do this every day. I don't have to rely on what somebody else posts who creates their own reality just to sell their product. The difference between Jake and I is very simple. I can build BOTH 4L60Es and 4L80Es for performance. The reason I don't promote the 4L80E is very simple...It's the WRONG application for most vehicles. For some odd reason, you must believe that Jake has a magic wand that allows him to defy the laws of physics. You do understand the laws of physics, right? Anyone who has been around anything mechanical knows that more internal rotating weight will cost horsepower. It's the reason engines are built with lightweight parts. See, if you had any real clue about automatic transmissions other than what you're falsely led to believe, you'd know what people do to Super Stock transmissions to reduce the internal roataing weight. Why do you think the largest percentage of drag cars run Powerglides? Because they don't eat horsepower because they have less rotating weight. We use aluminum drums, and swiss cheesed internal in TH350s and TH400s to get internal weight to a minimum. Again, I ask that you tell me how any 4L80E defies the laws of physics? You don't know because you have absolutely no knowledge of transmissions or physics, apparently. I've already stated that it's difficult for us to do a modern day comparison because nobody with any sense is doing a 4L80E swap for us to use as back to back comparisons. We've already did it all, and we've already proved it. Why would I get a customer (or myself) to waste good money on a 4L80E swap just to appease someone like you? There are a couple facts that are undeniable. First, Jakes can't build a capable 4L60E, so he peddles 4L80Es. Second, I build both and I've more than proved the capabilities of my 4L60Es.

Frank

[Mystery Bird]

The 80 keeps getting the title of "truck transmission." The 80 is basically a TH400 with OD. The TH400 was used in trucks and high torque big block cars. If GM still made some of those heavy car I think the 80 would be behind them.

[shownomercy]

Good personal attack, 5 star, great sponsor behavior.

As usual, you resort to personal attacks vs actual facts, and by facts I mean more than just "I am a 60e builder and I know this". Actual real life proof of what you claim, otherwise, its all opinion.

So, what makes your opinion better than Jake's opinion? (Not sure why you keep bringing him up) I am looking for solid, concrete evidence, and all you keep doing is discrediting me, and puffing your chest.

[Ryan Stout]

If you supply a 60 and a converter, I'll pull my Jake's 80 and do a back to back comparo. If it breaks, I won't be held responsible. The same tune, same everything will be used. 16psi should be 700rwhp-ish. When done, I'll send it back. Broken, unbroken, no difference.

[Ryan Stout]

Must be a similar trans. MVB with a brake.

[Mystery Bird]

Put me down, I will do back to back at the track comparisons against my home built 80.

[shownomercy]

If you supply a 60 and a converter, I'll pull my Jake's 80 and do a back to back comparo. If it breaks, I won't be held responsible. The same tune, same everything will be used. 16psi should be 700rwhp-ish. When done, I'll send it back. Broken, unbroken, no difference.


Put me down, I will do back to back at the track comparisons against my home built 80.


Anyone out there silly enough to put a 4L80E in their F-Body and let us do some testing and then we'll put one of our 4L60Es in it and watch it run 2/10s faster?

Frank

So, can we get this going? Looks like you have two candidates.

[Mystery Bird]

The other question is which one will last longer with daily street beating and track abuse?

[Ryan Stout]

Only issue I have is that my local track won't let me run again until I get a bar. So it'll probably be a street test, and then try a different track. Get a bar, then put my 80 back in it. Then run again. I hate getting kicked out.

[Ryan Stout]

The other question is which one will last longer with daily street beating and track abuse?
That's the only issue I see. I wouldn't wanna borrow a trans for a year. I can beat the shit out of a trans on the street. Especially if I get it in 2 weeks. SCT!

[CPT]

The personal attacks are derived from trying to deal with someone so hard headed that you can't get through to them. How many transmissions have YOU built? How long have you been doing this for a living? Why is my "opinion" more plausible than Jakes? I've explained this numerous times but you're too thick headed to understand it... I build BOTH transmissions, and my 4L60E reputation speaks for itself. Again, I know it's like talking to a wall, but here goes again. Atleast the other people reading this thread will be smart enough to grasp this. I build 4L80E. I have them in low 10 second turbo LS cars. It would cost me less money to build 4L80s than 4L60Es. My profit margin would be wider. The ONLY reason I would push a 4L80E is if I didn't know how to build a 4L60E because I know it's not the right transmission for the vehicle. Go back to Jakes FAQ page. See where he lists the fictitious weight difference between a 60 and an 80? Why would you believe anything else on that page when we already know that's fictitious. I could go through all the trouble an expense to do back to back tests, but you would still try to promote your alternate reality to keep from admitting the truth. I could post dyno sheets and videos, but in all your thick headedness, you'd claim it was all rigged. You made a mistake. You put the wrong trans in your car. I know misery loves company, but stop trying to drag others down with you. Now, lets bring up one other issue. Weren't you just on another forum a few months ago trying to diagnose problems with your 4L80E? I thought you guys all claimed they never fail? That's not adding a whole bunch of credibility to your arguement is it?

Frank

[CPT]

Good question, but considering I just built a 4L80E yesterday that wiped the pump and 3rd gear clutches out of it in less than 2 months (by another builder), I'd have to say it's pretty equal.

Frank

[CPT]

LOL... 2 candidates that beat the 4L80E drum religiously. There's no way I'd get accurate results from either.

Frank

[CPT]

294532945429455

Yesterday... I had it here because it blew the front seal out.

Frank

[CPT]

29456

3 weeks ago. Anybody else want to claim I don't build 4L80Es?

Frank

[Ryan Stout]

I don't beat my drum, but I do like my 80. Although I am open minded. My offer still stands.

[Ryan Stout]

Feeling a good internet argument today, so leggoo

60e to 80e dyno
http://gonicd.com/silverado/images/4L60vs4L80.png

50whp loss right CPT?
Actually, Jake had nothing to do with the dyno tests. A customer did his own tests and sent him the results after the fact.

[Neil350]

Saying the 4L80E is heavier is like saying the real Eiffel tower is in Paris, it's a known fact it's heavier. Saying any one would be silly to put a 4L80E in over a 4L60E is a bit off. Look at the track record of the 4L80E, Ohio Boys went 7.9s, Dave Childress went 8.6s with one. A friend owns Dave's old car and that thing has taken some serious abuse, same with another friend who has one in his nitrous LS1 F-body. There's tons of other examples out there. On the other hand if you had an 11-13 second F-body, is one needed, probably not. Just a matter of choosing the right trans for the set up.

[firebird_1995]

I'm currently installing an 80e in my monte. I chose to go with it over any other overdrive transmission because of cost. With the trans, converter and hd2 shift kit I'm under $1k. When i looked into other option that could handle the same range hp as the 80e the price was $2500+. I can't justify that cost.

[dawdaw]

:popcorn::horse:

[popo8]

I dont wanna get involved...all Im asking is can we keep it to a debate over the specific topic (the transmissions) and not attack anyone specifically. Either side. Please.

[Ryan Stout]

4l60-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAiYOBF4cnk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


4l80-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbbTUpSaYVw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[CPT]

Neil, you have a valid point that I agree with completely. If something is going to eclipse 1000 HP then a 4L80E may be a better choice. Putting one in a street driven 10 second car is overkill and will have adverse effects.

Frank

[Mystery Bird]

Yup, cause it made my car so much slower. Also, if I decide to do a power adder, I'm covered. Don't have to "freshen up" a 60 every two years.

[shownomercy]

I dont wanna get involved...all Im asking is can we keep it to a debate over the specific topic (the transmissions) and not attack anyone specifically. Either side. Please.

Only one person is getting personal, I am just looking for some science, explanations, or facts to back up claims and all I am getting is jabs at myself or long winded ramblings of how long certain people have been building transmissions.

I haven't claimed anything and my only dog in this fight is adding some info via a unbiased dyno graph.

[popo8]

Im not pointin an fingers...just askin it of everyone from that point on.

Its my KUM BAY YAH request. Lol

[tleed]

I was told by a local guy that builds high end race car transmissions and converters that a 60 is not reliable over 500 rwhp
It will hold for awhile but they wear out fast and when the band starts to slip there going to need to be rebuilt

[xDetroitMetalx]

My 4L60E has lasted 2.5 spring/summer/fall seasons now (hoping for 3 total *knock on wood*). It has not received much track time but I easily do 1-3 WOT pulls from 1 to 3rd gear everyday. I'm thinking about pulling it this winter and taking it apart to see how much wear it's actually received this time around. It was not an easy task to get it to last this long. It took 5 builds and tuning hours to nail it down to where it's at now. I sure wish I had 25 years experience at that point but I also enjoy working on the vehicle myself, I'm a hobbyist among many of us here so forking over money to someone else to do it sometimes isn't an option I like to swallow. That being said, I really wish I just did the 4L80E swap, a bunch of people told me to do it but I was hard headed. I don't care if it's heavier and I lose some power of parasitic loss... I feel I would have had far less trouble if I would have built one from the start... Even though I'm just an inexperienced asshole compared to other people who build transmissions for a day job.

[1sickta]

Neil, you have a valid point that I agree with completely. If something is going to eclipse 1000 HP then a 4L80E may be a better choice. Putting one in a street driven 10 second car is overkill and will have adverse effects.

Frank

A 80E is a good choice for a 1K car but if someone with 5-800hp ride they are junk and don't hold up as well as a 60E?

[Mystery Bird]

Do we have any updated facts to add yet?

[CPT]

Still haven't talked anyone into putting a 4L80E in yet. It seems nobody can break one of my 4L60Es.

[Ryan Stout]

My offer is still open. I'm at 18psi, roughly 780rwhp I'd guess, 800s at 20. Make it a MVB and find a converter and I'll give it a go.

[Mystery Bird]

If I was guaranteed two tenths of a second faster, that would put me in the 10.6-10.7 range, I would switch back. I just don't believe my car makes that kind of power.

[CPT]

Mystery Bird, do you still have all the parts to bolt a 60E back in the car?

[95albinobird]

wow....i have a issue of hot rod where they purchased a formula not running with a cam and some other bolt ons.theygot it running then swapped in a TH350 and had a runner in the mid 12's.if your running a 1/4 mile i really don't think you need a fourth gear.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/1407_spotters_guide_turbo_hydramatic_transmissions/
duh i found it it was in super chevy go figure???
you have to look at the gallery and read the story that is posted with the pics.good info!!!!
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/transmission/1105gmhtp-1995-pontiac-firebird-project/viewall.html

[popo8]

But if it sees any street time... od... is nice.

[Ryan Stout]

I couldn't do without my OD. Being able to lock the converter up is just as nice. I run 1800rpm at 55mph.

[SexyTransAm]

I like my powerglide in my 80 ta. but turning 3600 rpm at 55mph sucks. And I love the OD in the 95. And love getting 22mpg lol

[Mystery Bird]

I drive mine on the street with converter locked up all the time.

Frank, yes I still have all kinds of parts and multiple birds.

[shownomercy]

My offer is still open. I'm at 18psi, roughly 780rwhp I'd guess, 800s at 20. Make it a MVB and find a converter and I'll give it a go.

Wonder how long a 60e would last behind your engine.

[CPT]

We have a local customer with an '88 Notchback fox body that has a turbo 5.3 in it. It went 10.72 with a TH400 in it. Now we've built him a 4L80E that we're waiting on a converter for. We're going to test the difference between the TH400 and the 4L80E and then we're putting a 4L60E in it...

Frank

[shownomercy]

What does it weigh and trap?

[dawdaw]

We have a local customer with an '88 Notchback fox body that has a turbo 5.3 in it. It went 10.72 with a TH400 in it. Now we've built him a 4L80E that we're waiting on a converter for. We're going to test the difference between the TH400 and the 4L80E and then we're putting a 4L60E in it...

Frank

Just curious why are you trying to test the difference between a 400 and 80.... An 80 is basically a 400 with an overdrive but has the ability to lock the converter. .. Please explain if you think k you would see any gains between the 2...

[CPT]

The TH400 is lighter. The 4L80E also has an extra planetary. Any planet eats HP. Just curious to see how much quicker the 400 was.

[CPT]

http://youtu.be/InS3tbGxueo With the TH400 in the car

[shownomercy]

125mph trap, 405hp and in a light ass fox body...

Not exactly a "tough" tester for a built 80e vs built 60e ...

[CPT]

Look, everyone already knows that you'll find some fault or excuse for whatever tests are done. We're putting 3 different transmissions in a mid 10 second car with the same stall converters. You want direct comparisons, that's what we're doing. Stop whining.

[dawdaw]

Fair enough. .. not gonna be much of a difference ... plus you would have to have the exact same conditions.... boosted combo with a 400 vs an 80, I can gurantee the converters will not be the same. .. maybe close stall and efficient wise but even the most small difference is gonna yield different results. ..


More Interested in a 80 or 400 vs a 60e you build

[CPT]

The 80E vs. 60E will be a more accurate comparison because he's also swapping to a bigger turbo right now. He had the 80E in the car for a brief period before it came apart. He never had a chance to get the car to the track before it went though. We built the trans now and we're putting a 3600 stall Protorque in it.

Frank

[dawdaw]

Cool... interested to see the results. .. I know trans stuff a tiny bit and I know there's some serious et to be had in rotating weight. .

[CPT]

Rotating weight is the reason most drag cars run Powerglides. A Powerglide is junk in stock form, though. We used to do alot of Metric 200s and TH350s for Super Stock cars where engine modifications are limited. This means you have to find as much power as you can in other areas. The TH350s we're built with 2 of the 4 pinions removed from the planetaries, lightweight shafts, lightweight sun shells, etc. Ever see a TH400 with aluminum planetaries? Aluminum drums? Little tricks we've done to reduce internal weight and parastitic drag.

Frank

[shownomercy]

Look, everyone already knows that you'll find some fault or excuse for whatever tests are done. We're putting 3 different transmissions in a mid 10 second car with the same stall converters. You want direct comparisons, that's what we're doing. Stop whining.

I am not whining at all.

Merely saying its not much of a test of trans strength. My friend had a faster/quicker LS1 car with a bone stock 60e that had a shift kit. Lasted two seasons before motor lost a cylinder, trans still working. So, you are not really testing your 60e that hard is all I am saying.

I would rather see a heavy +3500lb car trapping +135mph as a test subject. But, I applaud the effort to get some baseline numbers. Now, will these all be MVB trans builds? And will the 80e have a T-brake?

[CPT]

Why would anyone want a manual valve body 4L60E? The concept makes no sense at all...In any realm of a distant imagination. You really should try hanging around racing a little more. A manual valve body only made sense when you were relying on a vacuum modulator and governor to control pressure and shift points. Then, when you wanted consistency, you put an air shifter in the car that is controlled by RPMs. The 4L60E already uses a computer for shift points that is more accurate and consistent than any manual valve body is going to be. Here's an in car camera of a 10.2 run in a 4200 LB Impala SS with one of our 4L60Es in it... 10.2 with both hands on the wheel!
http://youtu.be/aaE3zBhUMpM.

[CPT]

Merely saying its not much of a test of trans strength. My friend had a faster/quicker LS1 car with a bone stock 60e that had a shift kit. Lasted two seasons before motor lost a cylinder, trans still working. So, you are not really testing your 60e that hard is all I am saying.



Now, it appears as though you need this explained to you AGAIN. This test isn't to find the max capabilities of the 4L60E. We're still looking for those. However, we know we can build them to stay alive in 9 second, 4200# cars, trapping 139 MPH. "Been there, did that, have the tee shirt". Now, follow along here... This test is to compare the ET differences between a 4L80E and a 4L60E... Not how much a 4L60E can handle.

[Ryan Stout]

Why not stick it in a heavier, more powerful car? It'd show a larger difference I'd think.

[dawdaw]

Quick question. .

Have a buddies full weight ta. 3750 pound set up. Been 11.19 @ 120 on motor . It's a 383 pump gas Stroker with an 80e , 4500 stall from pro torque I'm pretty sure (might be a ptc) and a Moser 12 bolt. ..

He's really wanting to get the car into the 10.90s na and was wondering if it would be worth him doing the 60e swap?

No he doesn't want to spray it and no weight reduction (it's bone stock suspension)... yeah he's stubborn as shit..

Any suggestions on the trans converter. Will it really ditch 2 tenths or more?

[CPT]

Yes, a 60E will make the car quicker. That looks to be alot of stall too. How much duration on the cam?

Frank

[CPT]

If he doesn't change anything else on the car and it doesn't run 10.9 with a 4L60E, I'll buy it back.

Frank

[dawdaw]

Cams a 250/ 256. 6900 rpm shift

[Puck]

If he doesn't change anything else on the car and it doesn't run 10.9 with a 4L60E, I'll buy it back.

Frank
Damn, that's some confidence right there :).

I'm sure the 60e is faster as well, and a better choice for a lot of street cars...but for 600+ HP I think the 80e is a safer bet. Not just for going down the strip, but for the reliability years later.

[LT1BADZ]

Did this test ever go down?

[CPT]

Did this test ever go down?

He actually just got the new engine in the car. Hasn't made a pass with it yet.

[shownomercy]

He actually just got the new engine in the car. Hasn't made a pass with it yet.

Still gonna run the test though? Very curious to see results, regardless of outcome.

[CPT]

Still planning on it.

[Mystery Bird]

I wanna know too because if my car can run a 10.6 with just a trans swap and be reliable I'm in.

[SSlowBoat]

I wanna know too because if my car can run a 10.6 with just a trans swap and be reliable I'm in.
4l60e behind a 5xx whp procharged 383......4l60e behind a 7xx whp nitrous impala.....that runs 9's and drives to track and around town.......really?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[shownomercy]

4l60e behind a 5xx whp procharged 383......4l60e behind a 7xx whp nitrous impala.....that runs 9's and drives to track and around town.......really?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Again, while CPT may know what to do for these things to live forever behind big power, why does the rest of the industry avoid 60e like the plague?

It just really doesn't add up.

[adam85]

Again, while CPT may know what to do for these things to live forever behind big power, why does the rest of the industry avoid 60e like the plague?

It just really doesn't add up.

This is what I keep wondering. Im going to have to decide soon what route to go.

[SSlowBoat]

Again, while CPT may know what to do for these things to live forever behind big power, why does the rest of the industry avoid 60e like the plague?

It just really doesn't add up.
Because they don't know how to build them and can charge more for a 80e while getting away with not knowing what they are doing since it's slightly stronger.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[shownomercy]

Because they don't know how to build them and can charge more for a 80e while getting away with not knowing what they are doing since it's slightly stronger.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Lets take the CPT fueled hate of Jake's out of that statement, and just assume you mean every 60e builder. RPM, FLT, PB, etc etc. They and CPT all offer high rated 60e builds, why do no "fast" cars run them? If they lasted as well as claimed and were as strong as claimed, why in the world would someone install a heavier, power robbing TH400? If the statement of a tenth or two quicker from a 60e when compared to a TH400 is true (which I don't doubt) why aren't 60e builders selling these things like hotcakes on YB?

Riddle me that, cause I can't make sense of it.

[joelster]

Lets take the CPT fueled hate of Jake's out of that statement, and just assume you mean every 60e builder. RPM, FLT, PB, etc etc. They and CPT all offer high rated 60e builds, why do no "fast" cars run them? If they lasted as well as claimed and were as strong as claimed, why in the world would someone install a heavier, power robbing TH400? If the statement of a tenth or two quicker from a 60e when compared to a TH400 is true (which I don't doubt) why aren't 60e builders selling these things like hotcakes on YB?

Riddle me that, cause I can't make sense of it.

I don't believe a 4L60E is quicker than a th350 or th400 of SIMILAR build type with similar converters. Mike V had a nasty 4L60E in his car and he ripped a 9.9x with it. He has since gone to a th350 and he's significantly faster. Don't remember exactly how fast he's gone now, it says 9.77 at 138 on ls1tech, he may be quicker. Picking up .2 on an N/A car that is already flying is astounding. That's like picking up .5 on a boosted car. There may be isolated incidents where someone puts in a 4L60E and goes faster, but I'd bet that it's more a case of that particular 4L60E with its gearing AND converter fit the combo better than the th350/400 combo that was in there prior.

Stock Eliminator and SS guys can run any GM production transmission they want to. They all run either Metric 200's, or th350's. If there was an advantage of having a 4L60E in there, those guys would have exploited it by now. I guarantee that plenty of them have probably tried it.

[383z]

Any updates?

[CPT]

Any updates?

The 4L80E Mustang didn't have an engine in it all season and once we build a 4L60E for someone, they never have a need to do an '80E swap so we have nothing on that front either.

Frank