Clutch Issues

[93formulalt1]

So, I finally got my car running right, and on the way home from the 10th Annual MIFBody Meet and Greet, I started having clutch issues. About 30 miles from home, the clutch stopped disengaging fully, and the car wouldn't go into gear. I was able to limp the car home without using the clutch. Now, if I attempt to start the car with the clutch pedal to the floor and the trans in any gear, the car will move. I've checked the fluid level in the master cylinder, it appeared to be normal. No fluid leaks anywhere in the clutch system, as far as I can tell.

My original thought was a failing clutch, but logic dictates that a failing clutch disk would present with clutch slipping at some point, so my thoughts went to hydraulics. Failure to disengage would indicate either a failing master or slave cylinder, which would likely result in fluid leaking somewhere in the system, which I haven't found. The only other failure I could think of that would cause the issues I'm having is a bad throwout bearing. Is there any way to test for a failed throwout bearing, short of pulling the transmission for a visual inspection? Is there anything else that may cause the clutch to fail to fully disengage?

I'm on a tight budget at the moment, and time is a factor, so I really appreciate any and all help I can get here. I wanted to replace the clutch, throwout bearing, master and slave cylinders, and flush and refill the trans fluid while it was out, but it's just not in the budget to do all of that right now. Clutch kit runs about $230, throwout bearing is $185, Master and Slave cylinders are about $120 altogether. . . I just don't have $500+ to sink into the car right now.


Any idea where I should start? Anything I can do to pinpoint the source of the problem, short of starting to replace parts?

[MEAN LT1]

I would assume their is a leak in the system some where. Is their pressure when you push in the clutch?

[93formulalt1]

I would assume their is a leak in the system some where. Is their pressure when you push in the clutch?
Clutch feels completely normal, still acts just like it did before. I added some fluid, raised the front of the car, and pumped the hell out of the clutch pedal with the reservoir cap off today, then checked if it made a difference, which it didn't. I just don't want to go spend the money on new hydraulics then find out the throwout bearing or pilot bearing failed, and pieces of bearing are rattling around in there preventing the clutch from disengaging or something. . .

I do remember hearing a faint metallic rattling noise when taking off in 1st from a stop about 40 miles before the clutch failure, similar to clutch chatter, but more metallic sounding, and there was no vibration associated with it. . . With the engine running, car in 1st or Reverse, clutch held to the floor, I am able to hear a grinding (like the sound brake pads make on the rotor when a caliper seizes), and the clutch will slip enough that the brakes can keep the car from rolling, but it won't disengage enough to allow shifting into any gear with the engine running.

[donfrye]

Sounds like a bent clutch fork to me. Could be worn at the pivot.

[93formulalt1]

Is that something that can be checked without removing the trans? I am planning to pull the trans later this week, but if there are things I can do to narrow down the list of possibilities before I get to that point, I'll be better off. I'm probably going to wind up replacing the clutch if theres not anything else wrong with the car, just because of how many miles are on the car, since I don't know when the clutch was last replaced.

[donfrye]

I believe you can.

I do not have a m6 personally but that's a symptom of a bent fork or bad pivot bolt as far as I know.

[tleed]

To bleed the slave u must unbolt it from the trans and pump the slave by hand just pumping the petal does not get the air out

[93formulalt1]

Well, I found a smokin' deal from a member on a Centerforce clutch, it's used, but it's got to be better than the stocker that's in the car. Price was right, so I should be able to get new hydraulics as well. Just wondering, should I go with a standard bronze pilot bearing, or a roller bearing when I replace the clutch? Price difference is about $20, but I've heard of some people having better luck with the roller bearings. . .

[93formulalt1]

Well, I got the rest of the parts ordered today, including a Rear Main Seal kit, clutch alignment tool, roller pilot bearing, and an assembled/pre-bled Master/Slave Cylinder set. Once all of the parts arrive, I'll get to work on replacing everything, and post up the results. Depending on the weather this weekend, I may pull the trans just to get it ready for the job, but I really don't want to leave the car disassembled in the garage like that, since that's how nuts/bolts get lost, and the longer it sits between removal and installation, the more likely I am to forget what went where. I'm getting excited again, I know it seems lame, but I just can't wait to be able to drive this car again.

I'm well past my consideration of selling the car, as well. . . It's too nice to part out, not worth enough to sell outright and recover my expenses, and every time I get behind the wheel, I can't help but smile. I was considering getting rid of it to pick up a motorcycle, but I think I'll just keep plugging away at this car. Heck, I'm running out of mechanical issues that need work, so after I finish my current list of "to-do's", I'll be able to start working on the aesthetics a bit. A nice new paint job would do wonders for this car, as would some wheels/tires, tint, and cleaning up the nasty brake parts and painting them. . .

[94Blackbird]

How old/how many miles is on the clutch now? What you are describing sounds just like what I just went through with my truck about 3 months ago, and all it turned out to be was the clutch system was wore so far out of spec it couldn't operate properly anymore.

[93formulalt1]

I have no idea how many miles are on it, but over the 5000 miles I've actually driven the car, it seems to have started, worsened, and eventually wound up failing completely. I'm sure it's just the hydraulics, but considering the lack of information I have on the car, and the fact that the previous owner told me he though the clutch was getting old and worn, I thought it best to do the whole job. When I bought the car, it didn't run right, I've fixed that. The trans shifted fine. After spending some time behind the wheel, it began to occasionally grind into 2nd gear. As time marched on, and the odometer reading increased, the grinding issue became more frequent, and 2nd gear was almost unusable. I'm really hoping the failed hydraulics didn't result in sychronizer damage, and the new parts return the trans to the way it worked before all this started. . .

I may hold off on the clutch replacement, just doing the hydraulics for now, since I don't exactly have the time or facilities to do a full-on clutch job at the moment. If the hydraulics repairs the problem, I'll see how long this clutch takes me, and replace the rest when that time comes. I haven't decided yet. . .

[96LT1355Z28]

Your symptoms sound like the clutch isn't fully disengaging. This is usually caused by air in the hydraulics, a bent clutch fork/ worn piviot, or a bent throwout bearing. It looks like you've already bought everything but the clutch fork and piviot, I would reccomend looking into these as well. The best prices I've found on these parts are HERE (http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/8252716.htm) for the clutch fork, and HERE (http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/products/Clutch-Fork,-Camaro%7B47%7DFirebird-LT1-Clutch-Pivot-T-Nut-w%7B47%7D-Bolt-New.html) for the pivot and bolt.

[93formulalt1]

Unfortunately, that's a bit out of my budget at the moment. I will inspect the parts when I replace the clutch, but I believe the hydraulics will fix it. If not, I'll tear it down and get it ready to replace everything else. I never thought a cast iron clutch fork would be an issue, considering the problem was worsening. You'd think a bent fork would stay the same, rather that continuously worsening like it is.

I'll post more when I get the hydraulics replaced on Tuesday. Hopefully it'll be good news.

[96LT1355Z28]

I understand, my trans guy said he's had a couple T56's come in that weren't fully disengaging and it ended up being the fork and piviot. Aparently they can wear enough over time to affect the leverage or amount of pull at the TOB. When you get it apart look at the TOB and see if it's bent where the clutch fork pulls on it, that could also affect the clutch disengagement. They have been known to bend or fail all together. I posted some pics HERE (http://ltxtech.com/forums/showthread.php?24311-Of-those-running-the-Vette-throwout-bearing-(from-China)&highlight=lt4+throwout+bearing) for another member who had gone through some. I removed one from my car that wsa actually bent to almost 45*, the clutch wsa so worn it still had enough movement to disengage but was bound to come apart at any time. Please post up what you find for future reference!

[93formulalt1]

I understand, my trans guy said he's had a couple T56's come in that weren't fully disengaging and it ended up being the fork and piviot. Aparently they can wear enough over time to affect the leverage or amount of pull at the TOB. When you get it apart look at the TOB and see if it's bent where the clutch fork pulls on it, that could also affect the clutch disengagement. They have been known to bend or fail all together. I posted some pics HERE (http://ltxtech.com/forums/showthread.php?24311-Of-those-running-the-Vette-throwout-bearing-(from-China)&highlight=lt4+throwout+bearing) for another member who had gone through some. I removed one from my car that wsa actually bent to almost 45*, the clutch wsa so worn it still had enough movement to disengage but was bound to come apart at any time. Please post up what you find for future reference!

I will definitely post up what I find out. Thanks for the info, I had no idea they could bend like that!

[93formulalt1]

The new master/slave cylinder assembly arrived today, I'm hoping to get it installed either tonight or tomorrow.

[93formulalt1]

Clutch Master and Slave cylinders replaced tonight, no change. Symptoms still persist. I'm going to replace the clutch set, rear main seal, and inspect the clutch fork for signs of bending or other damage, and replace everything that needs replaced. Just waiting on the last few parts to arrive for the clutch replacement, I'll likely be pulling the transmission at some point this week.

[Fastbird]

It really sounds like it's a bent fork/pivot issue at this point. I presume you put the master/slave combo in as a sealed unit from GM?

[93formulalt1]

It really sounds like it's a bent fork/pivot issue at this point. I presume you put the master/slave combo in as a sealed unit from GM?
Yes, sealed/pre-bled unit. Felt exactly the same as it did before replacing them. I'll likely be ordering a clutch fork and pivot as soon as the money is available, like I said, my budget is blown to hell already, and this month, my paycheck was a LOT lighter than expected, so I'm pinching pennies at the moment. Nothing stopping me from pulling the trans and taking a look around to look for damaged parts though, so I'll likely get started on that this week.

[93formulalt1]

Well, I started pulling the trans (only stopped because the weather turned to ****), and when I pulled the slave cylinder, a piece of friction material fell out. Probably about 1.5" x 1.5", that is a pretty good indication of what's wrong with the car at this point. I'll get the trans out tonight, pull the flywheel, have it resurfaced in the morning, then install the new rear main seal, clutch kit, pilot bearing, and start putting it all back together. I may replace the output shaft seal too, while the trans is out, as it would appear that there's some leakage going on from that seal. I'll also check the fluid level in the trans while it's out (going to pull the driveshaft out with the trans to prevent the trans from draining completely). Hopefully the damage is minimal, and I can get by with replacing only the parts I've already purchased, but if I can't, it'll likely stay disassembled until I have everything to do the job right. All in all, I'm glad the clutch disk itself is the culprit, as I've been worried about the possibility of it being something else I hadn't counted on replacing.

Another concern I have, the straps holding the shaft in the slave cylinder haven't broken yet. . . I'm not sure why, as I did use the clutch after replacing the hydraulics, and it was disengaging the clutch when the pedal was depressed. . . Maybe they just stretched, and haven't broken completely yet?

[miller09]

i installed a new ac delco master and slave a month ago in my Camaro. used the clutch a few times and removed the slave and it didn't break the straps either. but works just fine so I wouldn't worry about the straps.

[93formulalt1]

Well, I got the new clutch and everything installed today. Every issue I had is resolved, with the exception of the 2nd gear grind. Looks like I'll be pulling the trans again later this year to replace synchros. . .

[93formulalt1]

i installed a new ac delco master and slave a month ago in my Camaro. used the clutch a few times and removed the slave and it didn't break the straps either. but works just fine so I wouldn't worry about the straps.
I realized it was working fine after I got everything put back together, I just thought those straps would have broken off like the ones in my '94 V6 Camaro, I think they broke the first time I pushed the clutch pedal down. haha

[96LT1355Z28]

Glad you got it figured out!