Taking early guesses...

[CALL911]

So, my car will see some dyno rollers again here hopefully in a month or less.

Last good dyno was 614 RWHP, and 555 RWTQ. That was with a very large custom cam, stock PCM, opti and AFR 180 heads and stock ported intake, a maxed out D1SC at 15#'s of boost and meth injection.

I did the 24x conversion, swapped the intake to a super vic efi intake, and different style 58mm TB and did 624 RWHP, and 545 RWTQ.

All we are doing is changing the heads (and with more air to breath, also upgrading injectors). The heads are now AFR 227's.

Any guesses on what I'll put down? I can go into more detail if requested on the whole build, but I figured most probably already know.

I ask because I have a friend who believes I will see almost no gain. Another who thinks 50-70 HP gain.

I want to see what others think it will throw down.

[shownomercy]

Some peak gains, not much.

[CALL911]

Some peak gains, not much.

Care to elaborate? Does that mean 10 RWHP?

To revise, I'd like guesses in numbered RWHP form.

[CALL911]

I just looked at an old thread on another website, where I asked the exact same question when I was considering upgrading to AFR 227's years ago.

The consensus thought I would see around 700 RWHP (that would be an 85 RWHP gain fro my last good running dyno pull).


:popcorn: interested to see what it does...

[CALL911]

The cam is very large, and the blower wants to make more peak power, but the dyno chart falls on its face just below 6,000 RPM. Yes the AFR 180 heads were ported. Not nearly the same volume that the AFR 227's flow, nor not near the same chamber size. (54cc vs 65cc).

Yes, I also expect to see a decrease in boost, but at the expense of more power.

The large cam, the large intake, the maxed out D1SC; all of this was being choked by the smaller heads on my setup. We saw it time and time again on the dyno, backed up by engine builder advise, to tuner advice, the all agreed that the heads were too small for my application.

[firebird_1995]

I think youll have AT LEAST 350-360 rwhp.



























Per wheel

[Featherburner]

690RWHP and 11.2@133mph

[Ryan Stout]

652

[JCzNova]

666 RWHP / 496 KW

[popo8]

Alex94TAGT

Is the site logging u out because u are using the ltx app. If so, I suggest using tapatalk or a computer. That is one of the glitches of the app.


Also...did u want all ur posts deleted?


Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com

[popo8]

Ben what pulley are u running.


Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com

[CALL911]

I'd have to look it up Larry, but the blower is 100% maxed out already pulley wise. Only thing I could do would be change the crank pulley and have the max rpm be lower (which I don't want to do). Right now my top end is meant to take more than 7,000 RPM, and the blower maxes out at 6750 RPM, but my peak power has been about 5800-5900 RPM. The blower and cam should pull linear power up to my redline, but the heads have choked it to its current peak.

[popo8]

Ok.. looks like ubdid the math already. Ibwas gonna try tobdobit based off ur set up.... but ibdidnt know what pulley.
94Blackbird

Ben maybe u want to give him all ur motor specs. He has some lretty accurate software from his racing school. IIRC he was within 10hp of my actual when I gave him all the specs.


Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com

[CALL911]

I sent him a PM Larry.

[CamaroZGuy]

662rwhp/598rwtq

:popcorn:

[popo8]

I sent him a PM Larry.

Cool....He is prob in class right now... but Im sure by this evening, he will hit you up...

[CALL911]

Cam specs are 244/254, .050, 578/578 lift, 114* LSA

[CALL911]

690RWHP and 11.2@133mph

With 614 RWHP, the car has done 11.2 @ 135 mph.

[SexyTransAm]

Ill guess 670rwhp

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547

[blackbirdws6]

660rwhp/565rwtq. I hope you make more than my guess.

[Featherburner]

With 614 RWHP, the car has done 11.2 @ 135 mph.More power doesn't make you a better driver. LOL!

[popo8]

More power doesn't make you a better driver. LOL!

OOOOOOooooooo, BURN!!!!!



Hang on Ben, Im bringing the ALOE!

[CALL911]

More power doesn't make you a better driver. LOL!

Well, I would hope it wouldn't make me a worse driver (lol).

I have driven cars much more powerful than mine. Plus I do fly a a jet that has more than 93,000 pounds of thrust for a living :devil:

I don't do a whole lot well in this world, but I can operate some powerful vehicles well.

...now watch me run an 11.2 @ 132 with another 70 HP.

[popo8]

Well, I would hope it wouldn't make me a worse driver (lol).

I have driven cars much more powerful than mine. Plus I do fly a a jet that has more than 93,000 pounds of thrust for a living :devil:

I don't do a whole lot well in this world, but I can operate some powerful vehicles well.

...now watch me run an 11.2 @ 132 with another 70 HP.

Doea that mean ur guess is 684 rwhp?


Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com

[CALL911]

Doea that mean ur guess is 684 rwhp?


Larry (Popo8) Co-owner
LTXtech.com

lol, sure ;)

[dawdaw]

I'm going to say 669hp 621tq but then again i juust drank a fifth of jager so idk lol! have you ever consider e85? I know it would require some fuel system component changes and some tuning changes but i think there are some pretty good gains to be had IMO.

[CALL911]

I'm going to say 669hp 621tq but then again i juust drank a fifth of jager so idk lol! have you ever consider e85? I know it would require some fuel system component changes and some tuning changes but i think there are some pretty good gains to be had IMO.

E85 does the same thing race gas does, and the same thing intercooling and meth injection does. In itself, it won't give you any more power. It simply allows you to run more boost and or timing safely. The car is making as much boost as it can with the current blower safely (and will make less with the more efficient heads). The only thing left is timing, and we were already running a bit safely due to my FMIC and meth injection. If I changed it to run on e85, I would gain nothing. The only real possibility running e85 or race gas would have over my current setup would be if I removed my intercooler as it usually robs you of a pound or so of boost. But then again, honestly, the meth injection alone would likely make up the difference and still allow the boost and timing.

I don't really care for the disadvantages of e85, like having to worry when I drive it out of the local area of where I might find it, as less than 1 in 10 gas stations carry it here in Indiana, and you get much worse mileage with it too, which can make it worse. Then, there are different blends that will throw your entire tune off if you get a different blend than what it was tuned on. Just too much of a PITA honestly, for nothing gained over my current fuel setup.

[SexyTransAm]

More power doesn't make you a better driver. LOL!

Would you like some alo for that BURN!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547

[CALL911]

Judgment day will be Wednesday May 29th.

Any more guesses?

[Paulster2]

I personally think you might find a few ponies in there (say, 5-10whp), but not much more than that. You'll find some efficiency with these heads. If you were NA, you'd probably find a lot more. The problem is, with the SC maxed out, running as much advance as you feel comfortable with, etc., you just aren't going to see that much in the way of gains. When you figure out what you are going to do with getting more boost (or whatever), this is where you'll start seeing gains. Remember, head flow numbers equate to potential hp capability ... Don't mind me though, I'm more of a theorist and this is JMHO. I hope you make big gains and prove me wrong! Good luck!

[CALL911]

I opened the thread up to all opinions. I don't get bothered by low estimates. Another friend of mine said almost the exact same thing.

Personally, if I only gain 5 RWHP, I am not going to be too happy.

We will see the results before too much longer then we will know for sure who was right with their guess, and who was not.

[blackbirdws6]

You plan on spinning the motor higher?

[shownomercy]

Money would have been better spent on a new head unit IMO if you are looking for money/HP ratio.

A maxed out D1 is a maxed out D1, all you are doing is heating up the air more.

[Paulster2]

... A maxed out D1 is a maxed out D1 ...
Was along the lines of what I was thinking when I posted. Everything else being equal ... I just don't think you'll see that much. I truly hope I'm wrong ... haha ... definitely wouldn't be the first time!!! The great thing about the new heads, though, is it should open up for gains when you get ready to improve the other parts of the puzzle.

[CALL911]

There are those that believe that, then there are others that believe the efficiency will be increased highly due to much better flowing heads.

Ill be spinning the motor the same as before (7,000 RPM).

I simply believe more will be gained based upon the guys I have had tune my car the last several times, and all said the same thing that the heads were killing the combo's potential. That and I have seen others on other forums like xxsaintxx on cz28 have a very similar combo do 700+ RWHP with maxed out D1 and these heads through an M6.

But ultimately the dyno will tell.

[Fastbird]

Fyi folks, on the old setup power was leaking at just under 6000 rpm.....with blower maxing out at 6750. I'm just saying........

Posted from my Rooted and ICS'd Rezound

[CALL911]

Its okay to have non-believers out there Fastbird. I asked for honest opinions, and I still welcome them. When the car ran correctly on this setup, minus the heads I am doing, it put down 614 RWHP. We have guesses so far as 619 RWHP to 690 RWHP.

[shownomercy]

Non believers? I prefer realists.

I can subscribe the normal status quo round here of fairy dust, rainbows and kumbayah but I do not think that really helps at all.

Realistic thoughts usually are not what dreams are made of, but, leggo, I bet it makes 735rwhp.

[CALL911]

Non believers? I prefer realists.

I can subscribe the normal status quo round here of fairy dust, rainbows and kumbayah but I do not think that really helps at all.

Realistic thoughts usually are not what dreams are made of, but, leggo, I bet it makes 735rwhp.

:nono: Only one guess per person, and you were the first to say "some peak gains, not much". No changing your guess to 735 RWHP now. :D

[shownomercy]

:nono: Only one guess per person, and you were the first to say "some peak gains, not much". No changing your guess to 735 RWHP now. :D

Technically you did not like my original guess and stated I needed to assign a number, so, there you go.

[CALL911]

Technically you did not like my original guess and stated I needed to assign a number, so, there you go.

I was looking for guesses in a measurable amount, instead of "not much". You've made it more than clear you believe the car will not make much if any gains over its previous combo with the smaller heads. And really, that's fine. In the end, you may be correct.

[firebird_1995]

Someone's jealous. :p

[CALL911]

So just a little over a day before we find out. Here are the guesses in HP order.

Fastbird...................700+RWHP
firebird_1995 ..........700 RWHP
Featherburner.........690 RWHP
CALL911..................684 RWHP
SexyTransAm.........670 RWHP
dawdaw..................669 RWHP
JCZNova.................666 RWHP
CamaroZGuy..........662 RWHP
blackbirdws6..........660 RWHP
Ryan Stout..............652 RWHP
8SEC6SPD..............644 RWHP
Paulster..................621 RWHP
shownomercy...."not much", which I formulated to 619 RWHP
Miss popo8............618 RWHP

Assuming everything goes fine on the dyno, and the car is good to tune, I'll post up who was the closest.

[CamaroZGuy]

lots of guesses in the 660 range....hope u smoke all the numbers!

[CALL911]

My biggest concern is that everything works okay and its 100% by the time it leaves the dyno. If it does that, HP aside, and I'll be happy.

If it makes 650+ RWHP and runs good I'll be VERY happy. :clap:

[firebird_1995]

What if it makes 700? Will you shat yourself?

[CamaroZGuy]

My biggest concern is that everything works okay and its 100% by the time it leaves the dyno. If it does that, HP aside, and I'll be happy.

If it makes 650+ RWHP and runs good I'll be VERY happy. :clap:


IIRC, you don't have a boost cam, or did you get a new one? but i think you should be able to brake the 650 mark

[CALL911]

What if it makes 700? Will you shat yourself?

:yikes: I think I might.


IIRC, you don't have a boost cam, or did you get a new one? but i think you should be able to brake the 650 mark

Nope, I still have the very large non-boost friendly cam. I really love the cam, even though I know I could make more power with another one, I just loved this one too much. I love the sound, the feel, and its power curve. Its not like its killing the power or anything though. The cam was picked for my motor and my blower by the engine shop that built the motor. I told him what I wanted out of a cam, and he specd' it out for me with my setup. I never wanted to go all out here. If I did, I would have gone to a different cam, and an F1R blower. All I wanted was to pick up more volume with bigger heads. Past that I was actually quite content with the car.

[Mrs Popo8]

I want to guess too.....618

[CamaroZGuy]

:yikes: I think I might.



Nope, I still have the very large non-boost friendly cam. I really love the cam, even though I know I could make more power with another one, I just loved this one too much. I love the sound, the feel, and its power curve. Its not like its killing the power or anything though. The cam was picked for my motor and my blower by the engine shop that built the motor. I told him what I wanted out of a cam, and he specd' it out for me with my setup. I never wanted to go all out here. If I did, I would have gone to a different cam, and an F1R blower. All I wanted was to pick up more volume with bigger heads. Past that I was actually quite content with the car.

your car dose sound good!

[Fastbird]

Ben, Al designed your cam with boost in mind. It's got a 114* LSA and a wider ICL too (I don't remember the exact specs). I know the duration is on the high side but that was to get it to perform like you wanted. I wouldn't call it a not boost friendly cam at all.

[Fastbird]

I'm gonna guess at least 700. But I'm biased......and have already seen how drastically the engine airflow has changed with the new heads. :D

[CamaroZGuy]

I'm gonna guess at least 700. But I'm biased......and have already seen how drastically the engine airflow has changed with the new heads. :D

did he have the single plane before?

[CALL911]

I want to guess too.....618

Added to the list.

[CALL911]

did he have the single plane before?

Yes. The only real change that was done to the car performance wise was the heads. Lots of little stuff like fixing a broken vacuum canister, getting aluminum charge piping, and bigger injectors and a different Map sensor will all be different since the last tune, but the only thing that should change the power level is the heads since its been apart.

[CALL911]

I'm gonna guess at least 700. But I'm biased......and have already seen how drastically the engine airflow has changed with the new heads. :D

I'll add you to the list as well.

[CamaroZGuy]

Yes. The only real change that was done to the car performance wise was the heads. Lots of little stuff like fixing a broken vacuum canister, getting aluminum charge piping, and bigger injectors and a different Map sensor will all be different since the last tune, but the only thing that should change the power level is the heads since its been apart.

2bar map? are you still MAF or switching to SD?

[CALL911]

2bar map? are you still MAF or switching to SD?

Still rocking the factory MAF. A boosted motor really should have a map sensor appropriate for the boost level you are running. A 2 bar is what I need. I have been getting away with using a 1 bar all this time because of the skill level of the tuners I have used. Using a 2 bar will make it much easier for my tuner to get the tune spot on.

[CamaroZGuy]

i have had a few tuners turn me away because of being 24x, 2bar, SD.....

[CALL911]

i have had a few tuners turn me away because of being 24x, 2bar, SD.....

Well, at least they turned you away instead of "trying" to give you a tune when it sounds like your car would be out of their comfort zone. There are plenty of tuners out there that I'm sure would be glad to take your money and try to "learn" from your setup.

They are hard to come by from my experience, but a good tuner should be able to get you dialed in with that combo.

[popo8]

I just wanna see ur car working well again.

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

[CALL911]

I just wanna see ur car working well again.

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

Me too! Thats why the numbers are not as important to me. I just want it to run properly again with nothing else needed.

[popo8]

Then its off to the michigan mile right?

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

[CALL911]

Well, I'm trying to take things one step at a time. But yes, I hope to make the mile event.

[8SEC6SPD]

644 rwhp - good luck! :)

[CALL911]

644 rwhp - good luck! :)

Added to the list. Thanks

[popo8]

Has anyone guessed : "ALL OF THEM" yet?

[popo8]

Its WEDS!!!!

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

[JCzNova]

666 RWHP / 496 KW

This guy knows his shhhhut off the dyno!

[popo8]

This guy knows his shhhhut off the dyno!

666 hp would require a special emblem.

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

[MeanTA]

Ive been watching and waiting. Ready to see that these heads will do!

[JCzNova]

666 hp would require a special emblem.

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

I know.. The Evil Opti ! ! !

[Fastbird]

Had issues. See other thread. One partial pull, made over 500 at just over 4k rpm with almost no boost. Its gonna be stout.

Posted from my Rooted and ICS'd Rezound

[Ryan Stout]

I love how my name I'd an adjective meaning "powerful"

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[CALL911]

For those not looking for the full build thread with all the details, but interested in the dyno stuff from this thread; the car had issues at the dyno. The car was unable to make the drive and had to be trailered to the dyno. Since it wasn't driven at all before the tune, there were unforseen issues that came up (that could have been fixed if we could have driven it previously). At any rate, becuase of the mechanical issues, it didn't get tuned on Wednesday, and we had to trailer it back.

Both Fastbird and I both feel confident all the bugs have now been worked out of the car, and we will be getting the car back to the dyno again this Wednesday. The bad news; the tuner wants the car to be dropped off so he can get a solid few days in of tuning the car. So, I won't have any dyno video to post up as I won't be there when he makes the exact and final dyno pulls. And, I don't know that the few days will align to where it will be a few days in a row starting with the day I drop it off. He may have to get a base tune going the day I drop it off, then wait a few days to start making some pulls. At any rate, it will be tuned fairly soon, and as soon as I have some numbers for the thread, I will post them up.

No one is more sorry I couldn't get the dyno results last Wednesday than me. But those of you who have done tear downs and builds before all know there is always bugs to be worked out of the system, more money than planned involved, and it always, ALWAYS takes more time than initially planned.

[popo8]

Amen

Co-Owner/Admin @ LTXtech.com

[Still2slow]

That's how these things go unfortunately. I worked at a high performance shop my first year out of college back in 2006 before going into my career, and had to wrench on cars I'd built while strapped to the dyno more than once. Its the small stuff that gets you. Good luck on Wednesday.

[CALL911]

So, update from the tuner. He is tracking down electrical bugs with the car *sigh. So, no word or not if it will be finished this week.

But he has made some runs on the dyno, so we do have some numbers. I have no idea how much he has left in tuning vs how much he has in figuring out the bugs. For those thinking the car would "not gain much", the numbers are showing that it did. 67X RWHP so far. Again, this may be the peak, or it may not. I won't know until its done. So here are the ones that are closest so far in guessing the final RWHP;

Fastbird...................700+RWHP
firebird_1995 ..........700 RWHP
Featherburner.........690 RWHP
CALL911..................684 RWHP
SexyTransAm.........670 RWHP

[JCzNova]

So, update from the tuner. He is tracking down electrical bugs with the car *sigh. So, no word or not if it will be finished this week.

But he has made some runs on the dyno, so we do have some numbers. I have no idea how much he has left in tuning vs how much he has in figuring out the bugs. For those thinking the car would "not gain much", the numbers are showing that it did. 67X RWHP so far. Again, this may be the peak, or it may not. I won't know until its done. So here are the ones that are closest so far in guessing the final RWHP;

Fastbird...................700+RWHP
firebird_1995 ..........700 RWHP
Featherburner.........690 RWHP
CALL911..................684 RWHP
SexyTransAm.........670 RWHP

I believe my 666 is closer to 670 than 700, 690 or 684 are... And Bob Barker would tell you that you all overbid too :laugh:

That's awesome though man! Can't wait for the finale!

[firebird_1995]

I'm sure its got another 30 left in there. Cmon, turn it up



But seriously that's awesome man. Excited for you.

[blackbirdws6]

Sounds like its headed in the right direction. Is this the same dyno the car made 614rwhp on?

[CALL911]

I believe my 666 is closer to 670 than 700, 690 or 684 are... And Bob Barker would tell you that you all overbid too :laugh:

That's awesome though man! Can't wait for the finale!

lol, well he's not done, so I figured I would round up and not down. There will be a clear mathematical winner when its all said and done, and it it may be closer down than up, but at this point it seems SexyTransAm is the closes at 670. My tuner texted me all this and it was "67X", so who knows if he gets just a little more, perhaps I will actually be closest with 684 (lol). At this point I don't really care. It is enough I don't feel like I was really "wrong" with my thinking that it would make a significant increase over those that thought it would make barely anything more than it already did. But I said from the start, I would be happy if it ran good first, then after that if it made at least 650 I would be happy. We have the power, now we just need it running right.


I'm sure its got another 30 left in there. Cmon, turn it up

But seriously that's awesome man. Excited for you.

Thanks dude.


Sounds like its headed in the right direction. Is this the same dyno the car made 614rwhp on?

No. Different dyno, different tuner. It did 614 in Sarver PA on a dynojet with Bryan Herter tuning it. Now, its in Indianapolis, IN on a dynojet with Mike Norris tuning it.

[Fastbird]

I can say one thing for sure. Your trap speeds are gonna go up.

[CamaroZGuy]

Awesome, glad all the work is paying off!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[CALL911]

More tuning today (and I know its been a while). For a complete run-down, you can check out my build thread. But this thread is more for the numbers, which I have an updated one for today.

I didn't get an official number (and he is still tuning so its not a final number). But what I did get was; "it getting ready to kiss the 700 RWHP mark".

So, here are the new top contenters;

Fastbird...................700+RWHP
firebird_1995 ..........700 RWHP
Featherburner.........690 RWHP
CALL911..................684 RWHP

[JCzNova]

:dancenana:


CONGRATS MAN! It's getting up there.

[firebird_1995]

That's a lot more than "not much"! :D

[CALL911]

That's a lot more than "not much"! :D

Lol, yes. Yes it is.

[Fastbird]

Muahahahaha! I knew she had it in her.

Posted from my Rooted and ICS'd Rezound

[SexyTransAm]

Damn that thing is makin good power

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk 4 Beta