L36 to L67 swap in 99 bird

[Badbird_96]

Ok so my buddy has a 99 firebird and he has been asking me about mods particularly about s/c. So ive been researching and this is what ive come up with and what i think we should try. Since the l67 came in so many cars just pick up a wrecked buick or something cheap and pull the motor. Drop it in the bird and add the s/c off a commodore which has a diff housing. Then build a custom intake pipe over the driversside valve cover, sticking close to the s/c housing up to a ls1 airbox and paint it black so it looks factory installed. Its a 5spd so thats easy but the only real thing would be would we need the pcm out the l67 car or could we have his tuned and it work? This is just in the planning stage but im going to get measurements and build it in cad first then do it on the car. Any suggestions are welcome and is why im posting this. I think it can be done and done cheaply if correctly planned out. If we do it going to document ever step so it can be replicated easily cause i can hardly find any info on this lol.

[94Blackbird]

The reason you can't really find anything on it is because hardly anyone has done it. There's one car I can think of off the top of my head along time ago where the guy had done the swap, and there were a couple people who were supposedly doing kits, but they fell off the face of the planet. It can be done though, in the early 90's GM did a prototype with the L67 motor in it as a feasibility study in case emissions forced the use of smaller motors. The cowl clearences are so tight with that motor in there that on most cars you'd more than likely have to cut the cowl or make custom motor mounts to drop the motor a little bit. Plus you're going to have to modify the fuel system to keep up with the demends of the motor when it goes into boost. It would be a pretty involved build. And you'd have to be certain that the motor you pulled from the junkyard was good, I have a friend who went through 3 junk yard L67s when he was putting that motor into his fiero before he finally got a good one, and that was after he replaced all the gaskets.

I'm not trying to discourage you by any means, but I figured I'd say something as I was looking to do the same thing to car I used to have in the past. I can give you some of the sites that I remember from those days if you want, those guys would know a hell of a lot more, it's been awhile since I messed with a 6.

There are a good amount of things that your buddy can do to that car to make it faster with out going through the trouble of swapping motors.

[Badbird_96]

Well i agree and im not to keen on 6s either but if he was going to do the s/c off one of those cars it would be the best way to do it. Ive been doing alot of research mainly for a l36 to l67 not really pertaining to the fbody but in general and from the small differences between the two it seems easier to me to buy the whole deal instead of just the heads and intake, etc. Probally be cheaper also. I personally think he should build it n/a. Is the height of the s/c that much taller than the factory intake? I figured it would be close lol but i havent gotten to measure it all yet.

Edit: Oh and personally i think he should just do a ls1 swap if we are gonna swap motors lol.

[Wooshie]

Edit: Oh and personally i think he should just do a LT1 swap if we are gonna swap motors lol.

Fixed it!

[94Blackbird]

What exactly is he looking to get out of the car? If he builds it, the positioning of the motor is going to severely limit what he can do upgrade wise. If I were you I'd tell him to do a turbo setup. Much less hassle than trying to fit the l67 supercharger in there.

[Badbird_96]

He says he wants to build power and he also says he hates the sound of the v6 so i think imma tell him to do a ls1 swap and see if he wants to go that route. I had told him he should do a turbo setup but he said he didnt want that so idk. Btw your sig is hilarious. My best friend is in the marines and everytime i read that i think of him.

[94Blackbird]

I see.

Who is he stationed with?

[Badbird_96]

He was stationed in north carolina but he went overseas a couple months ago. He took motor t and is training the afgan army to drive trucks. Thats all i know cause we dont get to talk much since he joined. What about yourself?

[94Blackbird]

I see. I'm in North Carolina myself. I'm attached to 10th Marine Regiment as a cannoneer.

[Badbird_96]

You may have known him or seen his car. He drove a black 99 ss m6. Here is a pic of it. Thats my old formula also. I painted his wheels lol.

[94Blackbird]

Unfortunately there are several black SS's running around town, so if I saw his car I wouldn't be able to tell it from the others. I'm pretty sure I'm the only TA of any color running around here with black rims and red lips.

[Badbird_96]

Oh i would ask him to look for ya but hes overseas and because his wife likes to start shit i have no way of contacting him right now. When he gets back i will tell him to look for ya if your still there. Btw i dont think i ever told you but nice trans am. My wife likes that size hatch better than mine lol.

[94Blackbird]

Thanks! I like it too, people see the regular hood and the low rise spoiler and assume that I'm driving a 6. You're TA looks killer, I wish the paint on mine was even half as good as yours is.

[Badbird_96]

Thanks but its no where as good when you get up on it. Rock chips, swirl marks, etc. But she aint to bad. Are you gonna leave it solid black or do anything to change it up?

[94Blackbird]

I've got a couple ideas, but it all depends on what route I take with the bodywork when I do finally get my car stripped down. If I leave it the way it is now, I want to do a black metallic flake and figure out to get a red tint to the black up top, kind of like ghost flames but over the entire top half of the car, even if it is just the metallic flake that sparkles red. Or I'm going to get a raised spoiler deck lid and rework it so it has a second gen style dovetail and do second gen style louvres in the front fenders. I found a 98+ online that someone had custom done with alot of the cues off of a 71 TA, and it looked pretty sweet. If I go that route, I'll probably just do a solid black metallic flake unless I can figure out a way to make my ghost two tone idea work with it.

I've got big plans for that car if you can't tell. :D

[stevo9389]

superchaged 3800s sound like you are (taco bell) farting into a leather chair when they have anything other than a stock exhaust. that being said a friend of mine had a swapped late 90's monte carlo that suprised quite a few of us by smacking down some stock LS1s and a couple exhaust only modded LT1s.

[94Blackbird]

On topic, though, if your buddy is serious about building up the V6, I have a few resource sites that I can give you to give to him. I know a couple of guys have hung vortechs off their motors and were running in the low 12's a few years ago, no telling how fast they are now if they're still in a V6. And if he's going to go through all that trouble anyways, there's a pretty bad ass stroker kit he can get for the 3.8 that'll pump out some pretty insane numbers for an N/A V6 from that era. Even just some gear and a few well thought out mods will have him in the 13's. My old V6 'bird ran mid to low 14's all day long, and I think I squeezed some 13's out of it during the cold season here. Damn, now you have me wanting another V6 'bird just so I can see what I can squeeze out of it without cracking the motor open. Suspension and gearing will get him along way, along with a few bolt ons. All I had in mine was a cat back, upgraded ignition coils and wires, and a section of 3" rubber hose clamped in place of the intake air baffle. Oh, and 3.73 gears too.

[94Blackbird]

superchaged 3800s sound you are (taco bell) farting into a leather chair when they have anything other than a stock exhaust. that being said a friend of mine had a swapped late 90's monte carlo that suprised quite a few of us by smacking down some stock LS1s and a couple exhaust only modded LT1s.

alot of people don't give 3800 S/C cars the respect they deserve, and they learn the hard way. I have two friends who swapped those motors into fiero's, and nobody wants to play with them anymore.

[LSWHO]

Why do the S/C?!??

Use the stock bottom end and throw a turbo on it. Those 9.5:1 blocks STILL run GOOD times out of the factory. Switching to the L67 is a waste these days.

(I came from the L67 platform.)

[Badbird_96]

Sounds like it will be nice. I couldnt help but think though what about using a almost black charcoal pinstripe and using extremely dark red candy on top of the black base above the pinstripe and then the plain black under the pinstripe. Oh and back on subject also i talked him into either a ls1 swap or using it as a dd and buying a v8 car. It would be cool to build a v6 and get it really quick but its easier to build an 8 lmao. But i could be biased lmao.

[Badbird_96]

@ LSWHO - He said he didnt want to turbo it. That was my first suggestion to him lol.

[94Blackbird]

I think we're all a little biased towards V8s on this site :D

[Badbird_96]

Well we should be lol. LT1s rock. I like the ls1 looks bodywise but i like the lt1 looks better cause everybody underestimates them and go to ls1s and i like lt1 motors way better. Besides i love hearing ls1 owners trashtalk my car then watching my taillights pull away lmao.

[94Blackbird]

Haha, yeah. I've driven both, and I like the off the line torque of an LT1 as opposed to the high end of an LS motor. It makes the car that much easier to drive.

[LSWHO]

Why would you do an LS swap?? Why NOT a turbo?! I don't get it. A Turbo 3800 will run bottom 10s for the price of the LS1 swap... which will net 12s at best.

The V6 exhaust with turbo sounds pretty good. and I hated the L67 exhaust note.

[Camaro_94]

Why would you do an LS swap?? Why NOT a turbo?! I don't get it. A Turbo 3800 will run bottom 10s for the price of the LS1 swap... which will net 12s at best.

The V6 exhaust with turbo sounds pretty good. and I hated the L67 exhaust note.

Umm.... IDK where you're looking, but it would be more worth while doing a LS1 swap into it over a turbo V6.

Its going to be WAY cheaper going the LS route and going from there.

[Badbird_96]

Around here i can pick up a wrecked ls1 thats been hit in the rear for a couple grand, do the swap, and then part out whats left and sell the v6 drivetrain and get most of my money back. And as far as the turbo like i said i suggested that to him but he doesnt want to turbo it. I dont know why but he doesnt want it. He wanted to try the l67 route but ls1 swap is way better than a l67 swap imo.

[Badbird_96]

@ 94Blackbird - Yeah i drove my buddies ss and i admit its a nice car theres just something about the lt1. The sound is better also. Ive had a few ls1 owners tell me they wished the ls1 had the same growl as the lt1 lmao. But like before with the v8 comment. Im a little biased lol. I would love to have another lt1 car or maybe 147 nah better make it 150 to stay even numbered lmao

[Camaro_94]

@ 94Blackbird - Yeah i drove my buddies ss and i admit its a nice car theres just something about the lt1. The sound is better also. Ive had a few ls1 owners tell me they wished the ls1 had the same growl as the lt1 lmao. But like before with the v8 comment. Im a little biased lol. I would love to have another lt1 car or maybe 147 nah better make it 150 to stay even numbered lmao

I've always thought cammed LT1's sound better than cammed LS1's. They have a deeper tone.

[Badbird_96]

Thats what the ls1 owners said even though mine or theirs isnt cammed. But in a couple months shes gonna be. Heads, cam, injectors, maf, throttle body, intake, valvetrain, headers, and probally a cutout. Dont know why the person before me replaced every bit of exhaust piping but left the factory manifolds on it lol. After that imma build a 396 shortblock and put all the topend stuff on it.

[LSWHO]

Umm.... IDK where you're looking, but it would be more worth while doing a LS1 swap into it over a turbo V6.

Its going to be WAY cheaper going the LS route and going from there.


Are you kidding? Don't think that just because it's a V6 that it's not mod friendly. It is NOT going to be cheaper. I guarantee it.

http://zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=411&catid=109

Tell me you can get heads/cam/engine/tranny for the price of the turbo kit.

The STOCK MOTOR ALREADY IN HIS CAR will take boost. LOTS of boost.

10 second turbo firebird for $4k orrrr..... 12 second LS1 firebird for $4k.... or 10 second LS1 firebird for $7k

I understand the guy doesn't want to turbo it, but maybe he should be shown this.

Yes, this particular kit doesn't work on F-bodies because it's made for the FWD cars, but it will perform with the f-body exhaust setup.

[Badbird_96]

I will tell him to check it out nexttime i see him. I dont know why he was against turboing it cause thats what i would do

[Camaro_94]

Its going to be more worth while swapping a LS motor in there over a sixer. Theres way more to it than just buying a $3500 turbo kit and bolting it on.

That motor will not last long if you plan on pushing 500rwhp out of it with a stock short block.

I've seen 6.0 short blocks go for $400... You can buy used heads ($600), used fast intake ($300), cam, springs, push rods, rockers, double roller timing chain etc. for about $1000... Injectors for $200, fuel rail for about $75, plugs & wires for $70, wiring harness for $200, nirtous kit for $300 (bought mine used at that price and included everything needed for install), Used T56 for $750, clutch & flywheel etc for $750.... You're at least going to need a 10 bolt (if you have more money to spend, obviously there are better options such as a 9in) and gears... Among many other things.

^^^ That would be good for about 550-600rwhp.

[94Blackbird]

Its going to be more worth while swapping a LS motor in there over a sixer. Theres way more to it than just buying a $3500 turbo kit and bolting it on.

That motor will not last long if you plan on pushing 500rwhp out of it with a stock short block.

I've seen 6.0 short blocks go for $400... You can buy used heads ($600), used fast intake ($300), cam, springs, push rods, rockers, double roller timing chain etc. for about $1000... Injectors for $200, fuel rail for about $75, plugs & wires for $70, wiring harness for $200, nirtous kit for $300 (bought mine used at that price and included everything needed for install), Used T56 for $750, clutch & flywheel etc for $750.... You're at least going to need a 10 bolt (if you have more money to spend, obviously there are better options such as a 9in) and gears... Among many other things.

^^^ That would be good for about 550-600rwhp.

Dude, I think you're being a little optimistic on the prices, most guys want at least double for a used T56, plus he's going to need the K member as the motor mounts are different. not to mention there's no guarentee he could find those parts local and could possibly have to have them shipped or buy new. On top of that, there's no guarentee that what he buys used would even be any good. Over all it would probably be cheaper and easier to buy an LS1 car rather than try to swap everything. Not to mention some states are pretty stringent when it comes to motor swaps, and his car being OBDII, he may run into some problems depending on where the car is registered at.

If he wants to go for the sixer, I say have at it. It's different and those cars can go really, really fast. Don't underestimate them. If he wants to do the L67 swap, I say go for it, just make sure he knows that he's in for a lot of fabrication work.

[94Blackbird]

Thats what the ls1 owners said even though mine or theirs isnt cammed. But in a couple months shes gonna be. Heads, cam, injectors, maf, throttle body, intake, valvetrain, headers, and probally a cutout. Dont know why the person before me replaced every bit of exhaust piping but left the factory manifolds on it lol. After that imma build a 396 shortblock and put all the topend stuff on it.

All the LS owners around here swear up and down that the LT cars have more power just by the butt dyno feel.

[LSWHO]

That motor will not last long if you plan on pushing 500rwhp out of it with a stock short block.

A stock L67 bottom end has run 8s. EIGHTS!!
A stock L32 bottom end can and will hold 500hp.

Yes, there's more to an L67 turbo running 10s than just the kit. The link I posted s...


You know what? I'm done. You're right.:jest::noob:

You're pricing is spot on BTW. Great work.

[Camaro_94]

A stock L67 bottom end has run 8s. EIGHTS!!
A stock L32 bottom end can and will hold 500hp.

Yes, there's more to an L67 turbo running 10s than just the kit. The link I posted s...


You know what? I'm done. You're right.:jest::noob:

You're pricing is spot on BTW. Great work.

Cool... I used to part cars out... And seeing as how I've already bought some of those parts at that price.. Yes.. It is spot on. I've already priced out a build for the winter using those parts. I have access to everything I posted at those prices. I used to have 2 V6 fbodies.. in which I basically rebuilt both.

Theyre dime a dozen parts on LS1Tech too. If you look hard enough, you will find them. Trust me, I have. Its not anywhere near as simple as buying a turbo kit and expecting 500rwhp and hoping parts designed for a 200hp V6 engine to hold up. You're going to have to build the rear end, I hope you're going with stronger internals if you want it to be reliable, the T5 transmissions are weak as fuck (ask me how I know... I replaced 1 before on my old V6 f-body), you're going to need a new clutch and flywheel... If you want it to last, you're going to need to upgrade other parts.

If he wants to use a V6, great... Its his car, he can obviously do what he wants. I'm just saying, it would be worth it more in the long run if he did a LS1 or LT1 swap in it.

Eitherway, IDC. Its not my car, and thats definately not the route I'd take if I were looking to dump money into a car.

[LSWHO]

Cool... I used to part cars out... And seeing as how I've already bought some of those parts at that price.. Yes.. It is spot on. I've already priced out a build for the winter using those parts. I have access to everything I posted at those prices. I used to have 2 V6 fbodies.. in which I basically rebuilt both.

Theyre dime a dozen parts on LS1Tech too. If you look hard enough, you will find them. Trust me, I have. Its not anywhere near as simple as buying a turbo kit and expecting 500rwhp and hoping parts designed for a 200hp V6 engine to hold up. You're going to have to build the rear end, I hope you're going with stronger internals if you want it to be reliable, the T5 transmissions are weak as fuck (ask me how I know... I replaced 1 before on my old V6 f-body), you're going to need a new clutch and flywheel... If you want it to last, you're going to need to upgrade other parts.

If he wants to use a V6, great... Its his car, he can obviously do what he wants. I'm just saying, it would be worth it more in the long run if he did a LS1 or LT1 swap in it.

Eitherway, IDC. Its not my car, and thats definately not the route I'd take if I were looking to dump money into a car.


Oh, the rearend. Yeah, you'd have to upgrade it for the turbo v6 but not the heads/cam LSx.

[Badbird_96]

Ok easy here guys. No sense in arguing. Either way is a good build. I myself imo i dont see any reason to not build the 6 cause just look at the 80s GNXs. They run major power out of a six. If i wanted a v8 car i would buy a v8 car but in his case with him being 18 and parents being strict he couldnt buy a v8. He found a 1997 z28 a4 for cheap but they wouldnt let him buy it. I dont know the differences in a series 1 and 2 3800 but im sure both can make serious power. I will see how he wantes to go about it and whatever we decide to do i will post up and do a build thread.

[Camaro_94]

Oh, the rearend. Yeah, you'd have to upgrade it for the turbo v6 but not the heads/cam LSx.

Read my original post in my underpriced parts list. I mentioned the rear end there... Saying a 9in would be the way to go...

Eitherway, IDC what he does.. It aint my car. If he wants to go the V6 route.. cool. I'm done with this thread. I said what I had to say and he can take it or leave it.

[LSWHO]

Ok easy here guys. No sense in arguing. Either way is a good build. I myself imo i dont see any reason to not build the 6 cause just look at the 80s GNXs. They run major power out of a six. If i wanted a v8 car i would buy a v8 car but in his case with him being 18 and parents being strict he couldnt buy a v8. He found a 1997 z28 a4 for cheap but they wouldnt let him buy it. I dont know the differences in a series 1 and 2 3800 but im sure both can make serious power. I will see how he wantes to go about it and whatever we decide to do i will post up and do a build thread.

Series 1 and 2 are completely different. 90 degree vs. 60 degree. Series 2 is the newer supercharged/na ones. 1 is the older GN turbo style ones. Series 3 is the newest ones in the 04+ grand prixs and such.

Either way he goes it'll be awesome. But, if he's worried about his parents, the turbo version is not only capable of 10 second 1/4s but is still a v6 and can very easily pass emissions.

Tell him to go to clubgp.com/forum and read up. Tons of go fast stuff for that motor. And those motors are LEGIT. The GTPs are the new GN/GNX basically.

[LSWHO]

I am actually STILL considering a turbo V6 firebird. It may very well be my next car-DD.

Also, keep in mind the Stattama Turbo Grand Prix dyno'd ONLY 753whp.... and ran 8s.


FINALLY found the damn link.

http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder456/index.cfm?id=65269&fuseaction=browse&pageid=53

Check out that bastard. STOCK BOTTOM END V6.
8.65 1/4 mile
http://www.commercecreators.com/sites/folder456/site_images_system/user/TTGTFrontOff1.jpg

[Badbird_96]

That thing looks evil lmao